You can now download all 1018 pages of this bill here, to peruse at your leisure. What I would like to point out, is what is on page 16.

Under the typical feel-good wording of "Protecting the Choice to Keep Current Coverage" (sounds like they are protecting free choice, doesn't it?), the following is written:

Quote:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT.—

(A) IN GENERAL.—Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1 (Y1=the first year this plan is in effect)

In layman's terms: if you already have private health insurance, you can keep it, but if you do not, you will no longer have the option of buying private health insurance!

If this doesn't expose the fallacy of the entire concept of "public option", I'm not sure what will. People need to wake the hell up, and get on the phone with their senators and representatives, and speak out against this bill forcefully.

Upon a quick skim over this bill, I came to page 72, where it begins to outline the Health Insurance Exchange, and the beuracracies created under it's name. Basically, only companies who are part of the Exchange will be allowed to offer insurance to new customers. Who can be a participating company as part of this exchange will be decided by the Health Choices Administration. In a nutshell, they will decide who can be in the market. Remember the entire reason the "public option" is supposedly being introduced? Because there isn't enough competition. If that's the case, why do they need to restrict who can compete?

Obama is trying to get this passed before the August recess of Congress. Why? Because he's seeing the waning support for it, and knows that once members of Congress return to their home states, they will be hearing strong opposition from their voters. Don't let him rush another bullsh!t bill through. Get on the phone, email, whatever you have to, to get the message to the people who represent you.

This is another huge power grab for this radical group, and it needs to be stopped.

The way I'm reading it, it's only saying you can't enroll in goverment healthcare benefits if you're already enrolled in the private healthcare.

Or am I dumb?

ThatGuy85 wrote:The way I'm reading it, it's only saying you can't enroll in goverment healthcare benefits if you're already enrolled in the private healthcare.

If you read the paragraph before it, it defines grandfathered coverage:

Quote:

(a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.—
Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This is where it leading into the limitation on new enrollment.

It then goes on to define which coverage will be allowed to be grandfathered (must meet certain dependant coverage qualifications).

This is clearly stating that as of the first day this plan is in effect, there will be a freeze on new health insurance policies being written through private companies, and that there may be insurance policies which are canceled anyway, if they do not fit with the qualifications.

It maybe dead in it's tracks anyhow (lets HOPE)

Quote:

Centrist Dem Leader: Has Committee Votes To Block Health Bill

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- U.S. Rep. Mike Ross, D-Ark., a leader of fiscally conservative House Democrats, said Wednesday a House plan to overhaul the U.S. health-care system is losing support and will be stuck in committee without changes.

"Last time I checked, it takes seven Democrats to stop a bill in the Energy and Commerce Committee," Ross told reporters after a House vote. "We had seven against it last Friday; we have 10 today."

"The FACTS are always subject to CHANGE once the TRUTH is applied"
"In the entire history of man the only stupid questions are the ones that don't get asked"

Yeah, but the Cap and Trade bill was losing support and had 40 Democrats against it the day before the House passed it.

It's good to be optimistic about it, but people shouldn't let up on it until it is really dead.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Quote:

(a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED.—
Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ‘‘grandfathered health insurance coverage’’ means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 if the following conditions are met:

This is where it leading into the limitation on new enrollment.

New enrollment into WHAT though? Private or Public health care? I don't think it's blatantly specified, which is shady because it could be interpreted either way then.

Regardless, I think wanting to provide health care to those who have none and to truly help people is a noble cause, it just seems like this is going far beyond what needs to be done to help. And although this would essentially just ban the insurance companies from the medical field, I do not believe that is the right solution. There must be a way for the two to co-exist.

Governments figured out a long time ago that the best way to control their populations is to keep the public dumber than dirt and then make everything they didn't want the commoners touching with their grubby fingers as complicated as possible. Thus, laws, taxes, the stock market, and now health care. That's how it works. It wasn't made for you, okay?

Still, when the "greatest country in the world" has millions of people without access to proper medical treatment, that is shameful and should rightly be changed. However, as crap as your system was (for some people anyway) the fixes weren't THAT complicated. One of the biggest beefs is that a lot of medecine was so expensive you couldn't buy it. Canada, of all places, has a real simple way of fixing that. We let the companies sell their stuff and make billions for a few years, then force them to sell it under generic brand name. Not too fair for the companies, but the people with asthma who don't go bankrupt paying for their inhalers are grateful.

I think that Obamacare will face one simple test: Will Obamacare be better... or worse, than the current system? This won't be some sort vague opinion thing either. This will be very real and tangible. If you save hundreds to thousands of dollars a month in costs, it'll show immediately. If you have better care, it'll show immediately. On the flipside, if doctors become overloaded and it just ends up costing you more in taxes, then that will show too. This is a make or break thing for your country. If this fails, you'll fail.

Knoxfire Esquire wrote:This is a make or break thing for your country. If this gets signed into law, you'll fail.

Fixed. Make no mistake about it. This is an attempt at the government gaining complete control over 1/5 of the US economy. If it gets implemented, it will kill us.

I've said in the other insurance thread what would fix the problem, and why Obama won't do it. I wanted to post the bill itself and point out what I've found so far so that everyone would see it for what it is.

ThatGuy85 wrote:New enrollment into WHAT though? Private or Public health care? I don't think it's blatantly specified, which is shady because it could be interpreted either way then.

While it doesn't come out and say "private", the fact of the matter is that it's putting a freeze on any new enrollment to a plan, until they weed out those who will not be part of the "Exchange".

Also, it states in the new enrollment paragraph "individual health insurance issuer". That seems pretty clearly directed at the insurance companies.

I think the problem is simply one of scope. You can't help everyone and you can't "improve" people's lives by throwing money at them. Modern man thinks he has dominion over life. He doesn't.

As for this destroying your country. Well, maybe it needs to be. Your political system is one of the worst in the world. It's so filled with much hypocrisy and BS that I really can't figure out why no one has noticed just how inherently corrupt it is. Your leaders lie and steal from you all the time. Oh sure, they don't send you to reeducation camps and they don't "dissapear" people... much, but overall they're morons, they treat you with nothing but contempt and they're always trying to pull something over on you.

It's like the Republican party, you think for one second that the leaders of this thing think highly of the NASCAR crowd? Or that the Democrats have one iota of respect for those left wing professional protesters who show up like clockwork at every G8 summit to start a riot? They don't care about them, they don't care about you, and to be honest, they don't care about anyone but themselves.

I mean just look at the basic structure of your country's political system. You have TWO parties. Imagine if one party died off completely like the Whigs did so long ago. How the hell are you supposed to be a democracy with ONE major party and several minor ones?

Your founding fathers didn't want this. They wanted you to have contempt for government. To see it as a neccesary evil. Instead, you worship it. Look at how Conservatives looked at Bush or how the Libs look at Obama. It's deification, pure and simple. And the countries that your fathers ran away from because they'd been run by Kings for upteenth generations? Well, we're the ones who look upon our leaders with contempt. We Monarchist have ended up being, what your Anti-Monarchist forefathers, wanted you to be.

Life's funny sometimes.

While you make some very good points about the problems in this country with politics, it's not the system itself, it's the people in it, coupled with the growing lack of real knowledge and understanding amoung the general public. Because of the average lack of knowledge, a glittery campaign can win the hearts of millions of people, and logical thought can have nothing to do with it.

What we need is for more average Americans to become involved and informed, so that the elite will no longer be able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and keep getting re-elected.

If you want real irony, the Communist country of China is becoming more of a free market economy, with lower taxes, than the Capitalist Democracy in the US.
And guess what? Their GDP is up! Go figure!

i always wonder why when you have something big as healthcare reform you feel the need to RUSH it thru. you'd think you would want to slowly take a real good look at it to figure out the best plan instead of RUSHING something thru. makes you really wonder what they are hiding.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography

sndsgood wrote:i always wonder why when you have something big as healthcare reform you feel the need to RUSH it thru. you'd think you would want to slowly take a real good look at it to figure out the best plan instead of RUSHING something thru. makes you really wonder what they are hiding.

You hit the nail on the head. It's not being rushed because they believe it can't wait, or because they're so sure that it's the right plan. They are rushing it before people really see what it is, and before the August recess, when the Congress members are all in their home state, hearing that the people don't want this.

Get everyone you know to CALL your congressman and senator. Don't email.. Emails get erased. Phones get answered by flustered staffers, who complain to their bosses....who eventually wonder if it poses a threat to re-election. CALL CALL CALL.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

funny little poll i took today had polled like 75,000 people and so far like 75% didnt like the bill and didnt want it to pass. like 10% liked it and 10% or so didnt know. i know allot of polls can be skewed the way you want them but 75% versus 10% is pretty heavy.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography

I hope that bills fails and burns in hell.


"I See No CHANGE"

ROFL.

Your all afraid of this "Socialist" bill... You all couldn't be more wrong about it.

THE BEST health care systems in the world are single tier public systems. France, Italy, G.B.... All have better health care then yourselves.....

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


To boot, our SORRY excuse of a health system here in Canada ranks higher then your own..... That goes to show you something eh ? :p.

PLEASE I urge you to read up on it before taking Rush Limb's preaching on the topic as the word of "God".....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care





My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

Short hand... If you get sick, how long do you have to wait to see the doctor?

ThatGuy85 wrote:Short hand... If you get sick, how long do you have to wait to see the doctor?

I was at the walk in clinic a week ago. 10 minutes.

I was in the hospital 8 months ago. I waited 35 minutes.

-My friend broke his foot and ankle in a couple places, he needed plates, screws x-rays the works.. HE had it done in 2 days flat.

The myth that we wait is exactly what it is... a myth.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

Interesting. That does sound like a nice process, but did you have to fill out an ass-load of paperwork to get the coverage, and/or when you make a visit to the doctor?

ThatGuy85 wrote:Interesting. That does sound like a nice process, but did you have to fill out an ass-load of paperwork to get the coverage, and/or when you make a visit to the doctor?

None. I simply issue my health-card, and everything is filled out and done. i just sit and wait. (I have an older health-card, so I never need to re-new it. Good for life !). BUT New ones need to be re registered every 4 or 8 years with a 13 dollar fee.

-AND to anybody wondering.. YES our waiting rooms have cable TV's and "somewhat" up to date magazines....lol.

EVEN if you do not have your health card there are ways around it to get you in. THAT is the only time you need mounds of paperwork.



My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

Short hand, I don't particularly care what some survey says, especially when some of the statistics they use are things such as dollars spent per capita, and overall health. For one, the best is going to cost more, and for another, the latter of the two is because our society has become so f&%king lazy, and people eat like sh!t, that their health is in the toilet.

I have talked to people from quite a few countries that have socialized medicine, including Canada, and they all tell the same story: if you need anything serious, you're on a rationed waiting list, and many treatments are not allowed because of cost.

The USA has the best health care, and it's the only country people come to for treatment that their country has refused to support for cost reasons. Just because Wikipedia lays universal health care out as some kind of natural progression of a wealthy nation does not meant it's a good thing. That reference to refute statements made against universal care is a joke.

The bottom line is that the government can not afford to provide that which is currently being provided, so in the end it will be rationed. Obama said it himself in a town hall meeting, when asked about a woman who recieved an expensive heart operation (IIRC, it was a pacemaker). He suggested that it might have been better to just giver her pain medication.

Every reputable source, including one Obama himself sited (similar to his lie about Catapillar in January), has said that this bill, and universal health care in general, will cause quality of care to decrease.

It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.

Short Hand wrote:ROFL.

Your all afraid of this "Socialist" bill... You all couldn't be more wrong about it.

THE BEST health care systems in the world are single tier public systems. France, Italy, G.B.... All have better health care then yourselves.....

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html


To boot, our SORRY excuse of a health system here in Canada ranks higher then your own..... That goes to show you something eh ? :p.

PLEASE I urge you to read up on it before taking Rush Limb's preaching on the topic as the word of "God".....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Tell my family friend in the UK that because he spent 3 years going through BS with the public doctors and only got worse. First visit to a private doctor and out of his own pocket found out that his gall bladder was @!#$ up. How is the "free" healthcare so great??? I have talked to many people who have had similar problems, most from Canada.

Quiklilcav wrote:Short hand, I don't particularly care what some survey says, especially when some of the statistics they use are things such as dollars spent per capita, and overall health. For one, the best is going to cost more, and for another, the latter of the two is because our society has become so f&%king lazy, and people eat like sh!t, that their health is in the toilet.

I have talked to people from quite a few countries that have socialized medicine, including Canada, and they all tell the same story: if you need anything serious, you're on a rationed waiting list, and many treatments are not allowed because of cost.

The USA has the best health care, and it's the only country people come to for treatment that their country has refused to support for cost reasons. Just because Wikipedia lays universal health care out as some kind of natural progression of a wealthy nation does not meant it's a good thing. That reference to refute statements made against universal care is a joke.

The bottom line is that the government can not afford to provide that which is currently being provided, so in the end it will be rationed. Obama said it himself in a town hall meeting, when asked about a woman who recieved an expensive heart operation (IIRC, it was a pacemaker). He suggested that it might have been better to just giver her pain medication.

Every reputable source, including one Obama himself sited (similar to his lie about Catapillar in January), has said that this bill, and universal health care in general, will cause quality of care to decrease.

It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.

1. I provide facts. COLD hard facts, and first hand accounts to back my points, and you go on to attack my source ? IT IS THE W.H.O. some of the greatest medical minds in the world........ MY GOD they must not know what they are talking about !

2. You system is one of the worst in the world... POSSIBLY the worst of all first world nations in fact for the Poor. Regardless of how many great doctors you have, or state of the art facilities..... What use does it do when 50 million people are without health care coverage ? Do you NOT see the problem when 50 million can not get this amazing care you speak of ? Do you see my point ?

3, My family.. HAS always received the care it has needed here in Canada, we have never been on a waiting list for Cancer treatment, my aunt got that kidney transplant, OUR sick kids hospital in Toronto is one of THE best in the world for child care..... ALL this propaganda you hear is exactly what it is.. propaganda. I live in a working system. It works for 30 million Canadians FROM our richest to our poorest.

Just my thinking on it.





My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"

Quiklilcav will probably say wrote:

Short Hand wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:Short hand, I don't particularly care what some survey says, especially when some of the statistics they use are things such as dollars spent per capita, and overall health. For one, the best is going to cost more, and for another, the latter of the two is because our society has become so f&%king lazy, and people eat like sh!t, that their health is in the toilet.

I have talked to people from quite a few countries that have socialized medicine, including Canada, and they all tell the same story: if you need anything serious, you're on a rationed waiting list, and many treatments are not allowed because of cost.

The USA has the best health care, and it's the only country people come to for treatment that their country has refused to support for cost reasons. Just because Wikipedia lays universal health care out as some kind of natural progression of a wealthy nation does not meant it's a good thing. That reference to refute statements made against universal care is a joke.

The bottom line is that the government can not afford to provide that which is currently being provided, so in the end it will be rationed. Obama said it himself in a town hall meeting, when asked about a woman who recieved an expensive heart operation (IIRC, it was a pacemaker). He suggested that it might have been better to just giver her pain medication.

Every reputable source, including one Obama himself sited (similar to his lie about Catapillar in January), has said that this bill, and universal health care in general, will cause quality of care to decrease.

It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.

1. I provide facts. COLD hard facts, and first hand accounts to back my points, and you go on to attack my source ? IT IS THE W.H.O. some of the greatest medical minds in the world........ MY GOD they must not know what they are talking about !

2. You system is one of the worst in the world... POSSIBLY the worst of all first world nations in fact for the Poor. Regardless of how many great doctors you have, or state of the art facilities..... What use does it do when 50 million people are without health care coverage ? Do you NOT see the problem when 50 million can not get this amazing care you speak of ? Do you see my point ?

3, My family.. HAS always received the care it has needed here in Canada, we have never been on a waiting list for Cancer treatment, my aunt got that kidney transplant, OUR sick kids hospital in Toronto is one of THE best in the world for child care..... ALL this propaganda you hear is exactly what it is.. propaganda. I live in a working system. It works for 30 million Canadians FROM our richest to our poorest.

Just my thinking on it.

That's just what THEY(the Liberal media elite) want you to think.

I'm just poking a little harmless fun - no offense Quick.

On a more serious note, as easily found within those provided links We spend more on healthcare as a percentage of our GNP than any other nation besides The Marshall Islands(and I can't imagine their GNP being very high). Yet... all these countries with some form or another of national health care spend LESS of their GNP on health care?! Yes, I understand that we lead less healthy lifestyles, and yet that overcomes the supposed efficiency problem of letting Government get involved in anything? Insurance companies like the current setup = they make a killing doing as little as possible and part of that is because most markets are very highly consolidated already.

There needs to be meaningful competition for these companies in the way of a public option

Quote:

It is nothing but a joke for anyone to claim we do not have the best care in the world. We are the mecca for costly life-saving care, because no other country provides it.

LOL - you can't be serious. Its interesting you used Mecca as an example - because while many, many people BELIEVE Mecca to be a holy place - its much harder to prove that. So... they take it on faith - just as you take your belief that we have any kind of care that is in fact not available in any first world country.

Quite frankly - besides the people rich enough to have no need for any such thing as health insurance(thus shouldn't care about this debate), the people in this country who REALLY DO have the best health care choices available are... on MEDICARE. You might worry that "Government is gonna come between you and your doctor," but as much as I hate to tell you this- there are ALREADY bureaucrats in the way of you and your doctor. Those are free market bureaucrats - particularity insurance companies, but also hospital conglomerates and pharmacies(I should know - I work at one) - they DO decide what kind of "preferred" care you can receive. The drug your doctor wants? The one that is best for you? Too bad, that one isn't "preferred." We get that all day long, every day. Even if your elaborate nightmare scenario actually played out - you wouldn't actually make it any worse that it is - you COULD NOT do so except for a tremendous effort to intentionally do exactly that.

As for Canada's health care - I found this amusing. Conservative Canadian Senator defends Canadian Health Care(since you seem to have trouble believing anything not from a Conservative).

Back to the matters of cost.

Quote:

It’s instructive to follow the health care dollar as it wends its way from employers toward the doctors and nurses and hospitals that actually provide medical services. First, private insurers regularly skim off the top a substantial fraction of the premiums — anywhere from 10 to 25 percent — for their administrative costs, marketing, and profits. The remainder is then passed along a veritable gauntlet of satellite businesses that feed on the health care industry, including brokers to cut deals, disease-management and utilization review companies, drug-management companies, legal services, marketing consultants, billing agencies, information management firms, and so on and so on. Their function is often to limit services in one way or another. They, too, take a cut, including enough for their own administrative costs, marketing, and profits. I would estimate that no more than 50 cents of the health care dollar actually reaches the providers — who themselves face high overhead costs in dealing with multiple insurers.

Now you mentioned our health being a factor in cost - but as you know(and I don't think you'll refute this) lower income people in America are some of the fattest mother @!#$-ers on earth(only in America LOL) largely thanks to welfare, food stamps, etc. But... aren't those are the same low income people who don't have any health insurance? Canadians visit their doctors much more than we do - and pay MUCH less for it. Its not the quantity of our health care need(which is what bad health would result in) that causes us to spend so much.

So no, I don't think that for the most part these fat people are the main reason for our spending too much on health care - but all the things I've listed here would explain that. Well all that and ridiculous lawsuit damage awards. That is something that also needs addressed - but it is NOT all that is wrong with our current system - not by a long shot.

Short Hand wrote:1. I provide facts. COLD hard facts, and first hand accounts to back my points, and you go on to attack my source ? IT IS THE W.H.O. some of the greatest medical minds in the world........ MY GOD they must not know what they are talking about !

2. You system is one of the worst in the world... POSSIBLY the worst of all first world nations in fact for the Poor. Regardless of how many great doctors you have, or state of the art facilities..... What use does it do when 50 million people are without health care coverage ? Do you NOT see the problem when 50 million can not get this amazing care you speak of ? Do you see my point ?

3, My family.. HAS always received the care it has needed here in Canada, we have never been on a waiting list for Cancer treatment, my aunt got that kidney transplant, OUR sick kids hospital in Toronto is one of THE best in the world for child care..... ALL this propaganda you hear is exactly what it is.. propaganda. I live in a working system. It works for 30 million Canadians FROM our richest to our poorest.

Just my thinking on it.

I don't dispute the facts in that survey, I dispute the premise for using the facts they used to rate the health care, because they aren't necessarily a health care statistic. Overall health not only has to do with healthcare, but way of life. How many studies out there have shown that Americans are increasingly overwieght, and increasingly less active? Those two factors alone have more to do with the health of the average person than the health care system.

As for 50 million people that "can't get" healthcare? That's already been proven false. I will have to look for the studies again, but I will post them, that show how many, out of the 46 million Americans without health insurance, actually can not afford it. There are people who have chosen not to buy it (and many of them fall into the category mentioned above, where they have every luxury in their home that they don't need, but they spend money on that rather than health care).

As for you being able to get health care for your family whenever you want it, I know from talking to other people in your country that it is not the way it usually works. I have talked to plenty of people who have been denied treatment, or have a family member who has been denied treatment, because it's too expensive.

Lastly, hospitals are more than willing to care for anyone who needs it in our country, and work out payment arrangements. Many times people don't pay their bill at all. They also end up providing health care for illegal aliens without being paid, and this is one of the factors that constantly causes the care for the paying people to increase.