I made this new thread because it's more about the Iraq War than Bush and because the other Bush thread is rapidly going off topic.
As the topic states, the Iraq War will always overshadow anything else Bush did. Like I've said in the other thread, Bush was both spectacularly unlucky and an awful public speaker. Two things which made his presidency look worse than history will ultimately judge it.
However, when it comes to Iraq, it's hard to explain things away. First of WHAT WAS IT ABOUT? Freeing Iraqis? Bull, nobody cares about them. Not me, not you, not Bush. That is propaganda, nothing more. Oil? Naw, I don't think so. There's money to be made there for sure, but that's an added bonus of the war. Not the cause of it.
But ultimately, the Weapons of Mass Destruction excuse is just that, an excuse. You're telling me that the world's most powerful government with the most powerful military didn't have spy sattelites combing every inch of that country? That they didn't know exactly where WMDs would be and where/how they could be taken out or hidden?
"But Knox, they took the WMDs out during the chaos of the invasion to Syria/Iran/ect...!"
Really? Where? Where exactly did they go AND WHY HAVEN'T GONE AFTER THEM?????? This isn't the Dukes of f**king Hazzard where the sheriff stops at the state line and watches the Duke boys escape. If it was so dire that we invade Iraq to get those things, I think we should... you know... keep after them.
"Saddam was an evil dictator! We had to take him down!"
Biggest load of bulls**t anyone ever said in the world. He was evil? He was a dictator? Well... lemme pull up a chair and sit down in shock here. Not to sound cruel, but so what if he was a dictator? We've stood by and watched worse men stay in power. Lest you forget Pol Pot and Idi Amin both died of old age in their sleep. Pol Pot killed ONE QUARTER of Cambodia. There were mountains of skulls in places. He did things that would have made Hitler squeamish. We left him alone. Hell, know who took him out of power? VIETNAM!
You know why Iraq? And this is my own personal opinion here. Because Iraq was easy. It's smack dab in the middle of the action. Legally, as per UN regulations, you could go in without ruffling feathers and it has good tactical positioning in the Muslim world. It's a great way to attract all the crazies in one place and fight them there. Plus, if the government there is stabilized and friendly to America they can repay you with cheap oil. (Again, I must stress that this is not why the US is in Iraq, it's just a nice bonus)
So did it work? Was the war worth it. It'll be easy to tell, because Obama wants to pull out of Iraq and if the US is attacked soon after then Bush was right. If you aren't (and I certainly hope you're not attacked) then Bush was wrong.
Pray Bush was wrong, because either way the war has to end. It's ruining you financially. Obama may be doing it for hoity toity reasons, but he can't let this drag on forever either.
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....wow.
if it's not about oil, iraqis were still freed, so yay!
in 1991 iraq had a stockpile of SCUD missiles laden with all sorts of gasses, from mustard to cow farts. they had to go somewhere. chemical weapons are considered by the Geneva Conventions to be WMD.
the weapons went to syria. there's data (photographic and informants) supporting it.
yes, it is like the dukes. we've got no beef with syria, and we don't need to go to iran, they'll tear themselves apart anyway.
saddam and his sons were evil. they got took out. big deal. iraqis seem happy, so yay!
iraq is NOT strategically important or viable. stupid. we don't want to be permanently set up in a place where iran can just, you know, walk after us. there are better countries that we are on better terms with...UAE...that let us take "tactical positioning" in.
if the US gets attacked or not...doesn't mean crap. no one was right, and now one was wrong. poop happens.
truth. the war does have to end.but the US isn't a french pussy. we finish what we; and sometimes others, start.
at least we used to anyway.
A foot hold\staging ground... I can see that.
They had WMD's... WE GAVE THEM TO HIM.
maybe the HMMV's that were off limits on base..... ya, we must have put the gas in them our selves... right?
No, I did not see any classified info, no would I post what I do know, but anyone driving by the base can see the wrapped HMMV's being pumped to create a vacuum inside....
wonder why?
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
Knoxfire wrote:You know why Iraq?
I do not know why Iraq.
Maybe because Bush likes to follow his father's foot steps... kill Saddam..finish the Job
Mission accomplished YAY!.
That is my own personal opinion because no one knows why we went to war with Iraq. So many people protested against the war from the beginning! but we still went. why would we want to go to a place where we will get attack over and over and over. We just had enough, the war has to end, we are running out of money!! and our economy is in a recession.
Did you know, People also protested ageist WWII?
The Revolution?
WWI?
(see a trend?)
Its Popular to be "anti war"
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
is not popular to be "anti war" is it?
anyway,
Before the invasion, Bush said that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and something about september 11, the iraqi people, freedom and weapons of mass destruction
So far we found no weapons of mass destruction and there was not a connection between Iraq and the september 11 attack. That is what the "the anti war" popular people get mad about because it doesn't add up.
Now the question is not why we went to war with iraq, now the question is how can we get the hell out of iraq and how can the iraqi government fight and defeat the terrorist
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Friday, January 30, 2009 5:39 PM
I could be way off but I thought we went because they were believe to be harboring terrorists. Either way I would bet we went there becuase the information given to the president was that it was what needed to be done.
I don't think it was to "finish what dady started" As for the weapons of mass destruction do you really think we would let anyone find ours if we have them? Correct me if I am wrong but were they not dening inspectors the chance to search.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
yes and no
Sadamm let the inspectors in and when they got close to something and when stuff started to heat up he woudln't allow them into places. Then all together kicked the inspectors out. Secondly we do posses WMDs what do you think a nuke is. Hell a Ohio class sub carries 128 nukes.
Watch or better yet read Charlie Wilson's war. We went in and aided the Afghanis in the 80's then just flippin left guess what happened pure chaos till somebody wiht money and firepower came in. Oh that was Bin Ladin and Al Quieda by the way. So if we leave now it will be the same yes there is a government and an army but it is still too young and weak to deal with the high level of threat that it has to deal with.
You really want to end this and get out get politics out of war. It comes diplomacy first and when it fails you kick the hell out of them till they surrender. But we didn't in WW2 and let the Russian's have their way and let all of this happen.
So if you want to really end it. We glass them all Afghanistan Iraq Iran Syria Egypt they entire middle east if they don't surrender. Just unload. Let it happen and let every person who think oh no America is weak and it could be taken over let them still see and remember we aren't so weak.
The proper way of using the word seen. It is not I seen it that would be I saw it. He has seen the car is the right way to use the word. English class is Cool. By the way thats my sig
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:Did you know, People also protested ageist WWII?
The Revolution?
WWI?
(see a trend?)
Its Popular to be "anti war"
Look at the percentages of pro/anti-war. This one is lopsided in comparison to those which we now appreciate (can you honestly even compare Iraq to the war separating us from British rule?). Remember, there are also Vietnam and Korea. Not all wars have become justified by history, and don't think history will justify Bush's actions. He needed to define a cause for war, stick with it, and finish the job within his terms.
He will be remembered as failing in Iraq because of:
1) 'link' to Bin Laden (and failing to locate him)
2) entering before adequately securing Afghanistan
3) entering without sufficient international support
4) destroying our economy and deficit in the process (war is supposed to BOOST economy)
5) pushing through the Patriot Act using the fear created by the overseas turmoil
6) abuse of detainees
7) not coming out with WMD's
8) Pat Tillman's death (had to throw that in there because of Cardinal's Super Bowl game tomorrow)
Basically, it was REALLY bad timing on his part, and it seemed half-hearted at times.
M-1 Erma Jean wrote:So if you want to really end it. We glass them all Afghanistan Iraq Iran Syria Egypt they entire middle east if they don't surrender. Just unload. Let it happen and let every person who think oh no America is weak and it could be taken over let them still see and remember we aren't so weak.
I love how the same people who try to justify the war using "we're helping out the Iraqi people who want Democracy and appreciate our help" can jump the fence and say "they're all trrrrists, nuke the bitches!".
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M-1 Erma Jean wrote:
You really want to end this and get out get politics out of war. It comes diplomacy first and when it fails you kick the hell out of them till they surrender. But we didn't in WW2 and let the Russian's have their way and let all of this happen.
Um, the Soviet Union was an
ally during WW2 and was one of the chief reasons that Germany lost the war. Without them decimating nearly a million Axis Power soldiers during Operation Barbarossa (AKA: Germany's failed attempt to invade the USSR) it might not have been such a quick victory. We weren't exactly buddy-buddy, but they did help make sure Hitler didn't have time to build a nuke, thus preventing WW2 from becoming nuclear. Sure, they did it for their own reasons, but the United-States didn't exactly save Europe's a** for free either.
Also, the Soviet Union was nigh unconquerable in 1945. It was just too big, too forbidding, too entrenched and too filled with some very nasty, very tough people. Russians actually ATE German soldiers after the siege of Leningrad. Did you know that? No joke. They were starving by then and so damn angry that they carved up the dead (and sometimes living) and had a BBQ.
Also, this was the Soviet oath during the invasion of Russia by Germany, as seen in the Frank Capra film "The Battle of Russia":
For the burned cities and villages
For the deaths of our children and our mothers
For the torture and humiliation of our people
I swear revenge upon the enemy
I swear that I would rather die in battle with the enemy
Than surrender myself my people and my country to the Fascist invaders
Blood for Blood!
Death for Death!
Not exactly pushovers you'll agree.
Quiklilcav wrote:
One thing I'm sick of hearing, though, is that he destroyed our economy with the war. People need to get it through their head that our recession had absolutely nothing to do with the war. What completely pisses me off is that some of the big mouths throwing mud ad the Republicans right now over trying to stop the "stimulus" plan (Barney Frank, Chris Dodd), are some of the ones responsible for why we are in the mess, and they need to STFU.
And for the Patriot Act, pay attention to what's going on with that now. Bush was hit over the head with it for years by the Democrats and the MSM, but now some of the very provisions everyone was screaming about are suddenly going to be good tools for Obama. One quote that I heard a week ago on the news, and I don't remember off the top of my head who said it, but was about the wire-tapping and surveilance being a good thing (now that Obama has them). And that was not pushed through using fear created by the overseas turmoil, it was created after the worst attack ever on American soil.
I agree with both these points. One thing I didn't precise in my original post is that the war's cost has really been a drop in the bucket of America's debt. What I meant by "It's ruining you financially." is that if you stay there for the next ten years, it's going to start affecting you monetarily, like it or not.
As for the Patriot act. It and the war have nothing to do with each other. It was an emergency measure because of 9/11. Was it good? Well, it's invasive, but you're not nearly as snoopy as England (Or, as I like to call it, the U.K.S.R.) just yet.
And yeah, I definitely agree that it's very convenient that Obama hasn't shut down the patriot act. Shutting down Guantamo was a given. Bush would probably have done it himself if theoretically he'd served a third term since it was bad publicity and not really doing anything to help the war. All you were doing was babysitting a bunch of a**holes whose nationality was in question but whose enemy status was not. Best to let them back on the battlefield so they can get themselves killed. If we're lucky the insurgents will make them commanders of platoons or something and their "great" leadership skill will result in them taking a few dozen like minded people into a firefight and kicking the proverbial bucket. However, if they truly are good and decent people and you were mistaken then they will live long and fortuous lives. Everyone wins.
I'm an optimist dammit.
Quiklilcav wrote:One thing I'm sick of hearing, though, is that he destroyed our economy with the war. People need to get it through their head that our recession had absolutely nothing to do with the war.
Sorry, I was not clear enough in my statement. I didn't say he did (you'll note I said war should help the economy), I said he will be remembered for destroying the economy
while entering into war, not
because of it. Whether he is responsible or not has yet to really be proven, but graphs will show the economy crash and burn at the same time as the war. Like I said "Basically, it was REALLY bad timing on his part".
Quiklilcav wrote:And for the Patriot Act, pay attention to what's going on with that now. Bush was hit over the head with it for years by the Democrats and the MSM, but now some of the very provisions everyone was screaming about are suddenly going to be good tools for Obama. One quote that I heard a week ago on the news, and I don't remember off the top of my head who said it, but was about the wire-tapping and surveilance being a good thing (now that Obama has them). And that was not pushed through using fear created by the overseas turmoil, it was created after the worst attack ever on American soil.
What Obama will do with it I have no idea, although I think he would gain political support from both parties by destroying it.
And I know it cam before Iraq, but we were already in Afghanistan, and that's where the trrrists were. I said history will make the correlation, just as it's correlated the Boston Tea Party and the Revolutionary War because of the time period and participants.
***BREAKING NEWS*** notec's steps to a brighter American future:
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