We had this discussion at lunch, so I figured I'd get a good rise out of the people here, so here's my mini-rant...

The US Prison system does not work. We spend 10's to 100's of thousands to even convict these people, then 10's to 100's of thousands on appeals, paying for their lawyers. When we do finally convict them, we set them up in an all-expenses-paid "hotel" for the duration of their "sentence" to spend watching TV, getting an education (on us, the taxpayers), working out and playing sports all day. We let them out after serving mere fractions of the intended sentences for "good behavior" where they go right back to the crime filled life they were living before, knowing that if they get caught, its pretty much a paid vacation.

The guy I was having this discussion with is a prison pastor, giving religious counsel to those convicted of crimes in an attempt to get them out earlier. He told me that one of his good friends was a man once sentenced to TWO life sentences for raping, desecrating, killing, and dumping two women in a lake. After serving just 23 years of his double life sentence, he "found god", became a pastor, and was subsequently paroled.

So where's the deterrent to crime? Kill somebody, get a short paid vacation at the expense of those the crimes were committed against, and if you want to get out, just "find (insert deity of choice)" and all is forgiven, get out of jail free. Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime.

Singapore has a sign in one of the overpasses that everybody entering the country goes under, it says in very clear English "DEATH TO ALL DRUG TRAFFICKERS", and they mean it. Upon them finding drugs on you, you are tried, convicted, appealed, and executed in under 2 weeks. The result? Singapore is one of the safest, most crime-free countries in the world. I would feel just fine walking through downtown Singapore falling over drunk with money hanging out of my pockets at 2am.

The problem with the US is lawyers and human rights activists. In my opinion, those convicted of major crimes (pre-meditated murder, serial killers, etc) that have little doubt of who committed the crime, should have the punishment taken care of immediately. Screw the 20+ years of sitting on death row (more like wait-to-die-of-old-age row), take care of it now.

Knowing that will never happen, here's a policy to get things going...

- Make each inmate pay, in full, for the expense related to the term of the sentence. Start the inmate off with a debt owed (for example, lets say it costs $100 a day for the inmate to stay there, sentence is 180 days, the inmate goes in owing $18,000). Make the inmate work at a wage, cleaning the prison, cooking food, working at a "prison farm" (farm run by a prison staffed by inmates), stamping license plates, etc. If the inmate wants an education, fine, tack on the expense of the books, tests, tutor/teacher, etc to the daily expense. All debt must be repaid, if you work up more debt than you can pay, it follows you after you get out. Don't pay? Go back to prison until you do.
- Humiliate the prisoners. Pink jumpsuits and yellow shoes. Make them work outside in view of the public.
- TV? Fine, weather channel, tuned to southern california, so the bastards know what nice weather they are missing.
- No parole, ever. You get a life sentence, you serve it. You find god? Good for you, maybe god will give you a heart attack to make it out of prison in a box.
- 4 people to a cell, your exercise time is when you do your job, no basketball, no weight room, no windows, open communal toilet in your cell.
- Family visits? Yeah maybe when you get out.
- Sexual release visits? Only if you REALLY like your roommates, or they really like you.
- Everybody participates in a prison remake of "The Sound Of Music"... performed weekly, practices every night.

Sorry for the rant, I didn't get a chance to get it all out at lunch.





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The system is definitely broken.


And until you have law makers who want to take care of victims more than the criminals, it will stay that way.

I like your ideas to fix it though!

hmm, I was thinking about the death penalty the other day. Do we need it? No

now, before i get flamed for being a bleeding heart activist sissy, here's my idea

Mix them in with the general public. Remember Daumer? He lasted, what, 2 months? Maybe? So you put your rapists, your child killers, your molestors, your serial killers, put them with the general public, the mafioso hitmen, the drug traffickers, the gangbangers, the thugs, the thieves.

Get rid of Death Row, and just mix them in with the general public, that way we're trimming the fat of the prison system, while getting rid of our scum of the earth. The taxpayers and victim's families benefit too.

i like your ideas too, very insightful

the system is broken, but i dont think your suggestions are the solutions by even a long shot

charging prisoners the cost of their keep will only increase crime. what happens when you come out of prison and owe $20k on top of what you owed when you went into prison? you will (almost) be forced to rob/cheat/etc to pay that debt off. the average in a federal prison for upkeep is 40k a year. 10 years would be 400k, not counting for inflation. how could someone expect to pay that off, esp when the majority of them have a high school ed or below?

rehabilitation needs to be part of the prison life and as such, education is an essential part. ignorant people are the ones that are more apt to commit crimes. GEDs are a must and i think collegiate degrees should only be used as rewards for good behavior, although i think some sort of repayment schedule should be used for those who exercise it. i'll be over 30k in debt by the time im done with my grad degree....no reason for a criminal to get his for free because he broke the law and was dumb enough to get caught

tv i agree should constitute of the basics. informational only, nothing for recreation. discovery, history, pbs, networks maybe. no cable!

chain gangs FTMFW! except for max security prison, prisoners should be forced to work. clean the highways and do other projects that will help increase tourism or just increase property values. make them work out in the hot sun or produce a product that the state can then make money on. that not only teaches the prisoner a skill but also reimburses the state at least partially for their cost of living.

im fine with paroles. time off for good behavior and completion of other courses that aid in rehabilitation. the problem is that hard crimes need to be punished more harshly and mandatory minimum sentences need to be dropped. theres no reason a murder should get 10 years and someone who sells a few ounces of pot should get 5-10. thats complete bull@!#$

family and conjugal visits should be on a good behavior basis only.

i agree with you guys.but somethings are being done and have been done for years. inmates do have restitution to pay off. as for texas that i know of they stamp the liscence plates for all the vehicles. they make all their pillows, blankets, beds and so on. i dont know what prisons you guys all talking about but you dont get to play sports and have rec. all day. the ones that do have rec have good behavior and they get about 4 hours a day of rec. which people need time to have activities. if they did not have them they would have nothing but idle time on their hands in jail. and its stressful enough being in there. i fully agree with the death penalty. kill them bastards. i wish they would kill them like they treated their victim. but we all know that would not happen. but people do make mastakes. over half dont learn from them. but the ones that do get on with there lives and not mess up. i agree with the spending the entire length of your sentence. but people need reasons for things. if i knew i could get out in 5 years on a 8 year sentence i would have good behavior. i guess you have to have something to look foward to being in there. the only reason im saying this is i was one of those people that messed up. when i was 14 i robbed a store at gun point. i got an 8 year sentence for that. i served 5 years and a couple months and i got out for good behavior. finished parole last month. i am so proud i changed as a person. some do change, but some dont but they do need more 1 on 1 time with inmates in jail. the problem is you go to jail and thats it. no help. we need to help our people instead of tell them to rott and die. two wrongs dont make a right.

Well I sort of agree and disagree, being a criminal justice major, ill just throw out what i can remember off the top of my head. I find that in many cases its not really a "paid vacation" as Prison can be a very terrifying place to be, especially with the pecking order depending on what your crime was, and what type of prison you were sentenced to.I cant imagine spending 5 years in prison, that is a terrifying prospect for me. Also, the average waiting time for a death row inmate is 11 years btw. However there is one study that suggests, based on many averages (average lifespan, age of initial incarceration etc) that it would be cheaper to house criminals for life then to execute them, because the many appeals your entitled to before execution costs the system so much.

The problem here, and with your solution, is it still costs us to build and run these prisons, and they don't exactly generate a lot of income. We have more people incarcerated then any other nation, and it shows as nearly all of our prisons are beyond capacity. The pink chain-gangs been done before, in Arizona I believe, outside prison, where all the inmates have to wear pink underwear.

Honestly i think charging inmates would be a terrible idea, if you study crime maps, and criminal demographics, the large majority of crimes occur in poorer parts of town with the largest percentage of perpetrators being poor and of low education. So if they're poor before they go in, giving them more debt when they come out isn't going to solve anything, especially considering the inherent discrimination against hiring ex cons, coupled with their low education, they would in most likely hood never get a good enough job to pay off that debt, not to mention issues of unconstitutionality would most likely be brought up. I do agree that it would be good for more prisons to use prison labor to generate an income. If a prison could be self sustainable it would take a lot of burden off.

Again the issue of parole comes up because of overcrowding mostly, this is a tricky subject as there will always be two view points. Its kind of the same deal as plea bargaining, because a trial costs so much, the prosecutor will offer a reduced sentence to the defendant in exchange for a guilty or no contest plea, thus avoiding the strain on the system. But should some offenders really get the offer of a reduced sentence? Or should we stick to the books and make every one pay the time for their crime? In actuality with out plea bargaining, and parole the system would collapse. Plea bargaining is needed because theres a statute of limitations for persecuting certain crimes, and the constitution guarantees a speedy trial, which normally means they have to hold it within 172 days or so after your plea. After that they are bound by law to set you free or show extenuating circumstances for a delay. Now if we didn't have plea bargaining and prosecutors had to try every case, we would end up letting thousands of criminals go because of the time needed to do this would encroach the right to a speedy trial. The same thing would happen in the prisons, if we didn't have parole, being already overcrowded, we would (probably within a day or two) quickly run out of space for all the criminals. Build more prisons? Prepare to pay more taxes.

So I guess my conclusion is, yes the system is very broken. But there isn't an easy fix. My idea? Bring back the gladiator games, make it willing participation. The violent offenders get their greatest wish, possibly throw in a monetary reward for the winners, the revenue generated would more the cover the cost to operate. Theres a plethora of wrongs with this idea..but it does make a little bit of sense in a twisted sort of way. These people want to kill so bad, maybe we should let them kill each other, two birds with one stone,hell they're already doing it in prisons anyway, the system might as well profit from it.

What ever happened to good old fashioned hangings?

^ You can still request an execution by hanging in 2 states I believe, but it is up to the accused to request it. Done correctly a hanging is quick, painless, and mess free. The 13 turns at the top of the noose is meant to snap your neck in a specific spot, causing paralysis and pinching a blood vessel to the brain. You black out in a few seconds and die within 30 seconds from that. You can also get a firing squad in Texas I believe.





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good ol' Joe Arpaio. pink underwear and chain-gangs FTW. that's one good thing about AZ.

Ron, I'm all for your suggestions. the only thing I would change is that they aren't released until they pay their bill in full.



Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

Shifted wrote:We had this discussion at lunch, so I figured I'd get a good rise out of the people here, so here's my mini-rant...

The US Prison system does not work. We spend 10's to 100's of thousands to even convict these people, then 10's to 100's of thousands on appeals, paying for their lawyers. When we do finally convict them, we set them up in an all-expenses-paid "hotel" for the duration of their "sentence" to spend watching TV, getting an education (on us, the taxpayers), working out and playing sports all day. We let them out after serving mere fractions of the intended sentences for "good behavior" where they go right back to the crime filled life they were living before, knowing that if they get caught, its pretty much a paid vacation.

The guy I was having this discussion with is a prison pastor, giving religious counsel to those convicted of crimes in an attempt to get them out earlier. He told me that one of his good friends was a man once sentenced to TWO life sentences for raping, desecrating, killing, and dumping two women in a lake. After serving just 23 years of his double life sentence, he "found god", became a pastor, and was subsequently paroled.

So where's the deterrent to crime? Kill somebody, get a short paid vacation at the expense of those the crimes were committed against, and if you want to get out, just "find (insert deity of choice)" and all is forgiven, get out of jail free. Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime.

Singapore has a sign in one of the overpasses that everybody entering the country goes under, it says in very clear English "DEATH TO ALL DRUG TRAFFICKERS", and they mean it. Upon them finding drugs on you, you are tried, convicted, appealed, and executed in under 2 weeks. The result? Singapore is one of the safest, most crime-free countries in the world. I would feel just fine walking through downtown Singapore falling over drunk with money hanging out of my pockets at 2am.

The problem with the US is lawyers and human rights activists. In my opinion, those convicted of major crimes (pre-meditated murder, serial killers, etc) that have little doubt of who committed the crime, should have the punishment taken care of immediately. Screw the 20+ years of sitting on death row (more like wait-to-die-of-old-age row), take care of it now.

Knowing that will never happen, here's a policy to get things going...

- Make each inmate pay, in full, for the expense related to the term of the sentence. Start the inmate off with a debt owed (for example, lets say it costs $100 a day for the inmate to stay there, sentence is 180 days, the inmate goes in owing $18,000). Make the inmate work at a wage, cleaning the prison, cooking food, working at a "prison farm" (farm run by a prison staffed by inmates), stamping license plates, etc. If the inmate wants an education, fine, tack on the expense of the books, tests, tutor/teacher, etc to the daily expense. All debt must be repaid, if you work up more debt than you can pay, it follows you after you get out. Don't pay? Go back to prison until you do.
- Humiliate the prisoners. Pink jumpsuits and yellow shoes. Make them work outside in view of the public.
- TV? Fine, weather channel, tuned to southern california, so the bastards know what nice weather they are missing.
- No parole, ever. You get a life sentence, you serve it. You find god? Good for you, maybe god will give you a heart attack to make it out of prison in a box.
- 4 people to a cell, your exercise time is when you do your job, no basketball, no weight room, no windows, open communal toilet in your cell.
- Family visits? Yeah maybe when you get out.
- Sexual release visits? Only if you REALLY like your roommates, or they really like you.
- Everybody participates in a prison remake of "The Sound Of Music"... performed weekly, practices every night.

Sorry for the rant, I didn't get a chance to get it all out at lunch.

First off - War Forum.

I almost agree with the whole "good behavior" thing, but when it comes down to it we do need something to encourage good behavior in prison - prison guards have it bad enough as is. I say that "good behavior" should reduce your sentence a little, but not much at all. Also, "bad behavior" should tack on alot more time - as well as breaking any "reduced time" agreements given that was given by prosecutors in plea agreements etc. Life in prison? Well we could just "upgrade" you to death row. That would be alot more effective. Of course that would magnify our prison over-population problem, but I'll get to that later.

Now a trial and killing within 2 weeks is a bit excessive. I'll bet Singapore probably executes tons on innocent people in the process too. There is no way you can have a fair trial and be satisfactorily PROVEN guilty in that amount of time. But yes I'm all about giving death row to anyone who intentionally kills someone else(excluding circumstances such as self defense etc) and even people only convicted of attempted murder(should they get less of a sentence because they failed? I say its the thought that counts). And I do think that giving someone 10 years etc on death row is quite ridiculous. If you are gonna kill them then get it over with sooner. Why waste that much time and money? Sentence them to 1-2 years death row, and if their appeals go for longer than that then so be it - postpone their execution til they are done.

There are some problems with that however - because there are problems with the current death row system that seriously need addressed yesterday. Way too many innocent people are executed every year(1 is too many but alot more than that happen). My state(IL) is one of the worst offenders. And those appeals are a gigantic (although necessary) waste of money. We need to reduce both the amount of innocent people executed and the amount of those appeals. How? Although I think the death penalty should be on the table for all murders or attempted murderers, I also think the burden of proof much be MUCH HIGHER(as in NO POSSIBILITY of innocence) to land then on death row. If its clear they are guilty but the evidence isn't overwhelmingly there(if there is even a 1% chance they are innocent), give them life in prison. That would remove the possibility of executing innocent people AND remove the need for so many appeals(you do need a "basis for appeal" and people convicted on solid-as-steel indisputable evidence would have none).

I'm sorry, but that idea of making inmate pay for their stay is stupid from top-to-bottom. Besides the fact that you are charging them for something they didn't exactly elect(it isn't like most of them WANT to be in there), just HOW THE HELL DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO EVER PAY FOR THAT?! You can't exactly work 9-5 at Caterpillar Tractors from behind bars - and its not like they're gonna hire you so easily after you get out either.

Don't pay then you go back?! Debtors prison anyone? Going to prison for owing money is pretty expressively forbidden - for a good reason. Maybe you should go to prison because you are behind on your mortgage? No thank you - lets save prison time for actually breaking the law. Under that idea, really the only people who will be able to avoid going back are people who break the law again(without getting caught this time - no witnesses...) to raise some funds. Not such a great idea after all.

I agree with no more TV(other than purely educational channels). I don't think they need to catch the latest episode of "Rome" on HBO. If that isn't entertaining enough, let them read a book -and I DON"T mean Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings etc - educational non-fiction books only(well religious books too if they want them). Let them learn about electrical wiring codes, plumbing installation, general carpentry, computer programming, etc. Let them read some history books if they want "stories" so bad. Let them learn some geography, new languages, etc. I want them to come out of prison with job skills so they don't need to return to a life of crime.

Along that note - I do think that giving an education to those who don't have it is important. Give them at least a GED for free. If they want college, fine. But they can get a student loan to pay off like everyone else. Let them apply for scholarships if they want, and if they actually get them(probably not too many people will give them to convicts), then more power to them. Those who actually get a college education would have the best chance to be contributing members of society, so I'm all for it.

I agree with generally less than great prison conditions for all. Turn up the air conditioning dial in Summer and turn then heater dial down in Winter. Temperatures don't need to be comfortable in the least - just not life threateningly hot or cold. Just think of the energy savings and therefore tax savings. No conjugal visits. One phone call per month(collect or prepaid calling card only). Prison food should always be bland and tasteless - but very nutritious. I'd keep the windows - light deprivation would literally make them go crazy. Inducing insanity is pretty counter-productive to reforming people to productive members of society.

But exercise is not something I'd eliminate. We have enough fatties in America and we don't need our prisons clogged with them too. Take away their exercise and their health will decline substantially - which means increased health care cost aka alot more tax money. Plus alot of them will rejoin society and like I said America already has enough fatties in it as is. 1 hour of exercise daily - running on a track or lifting weights only(nothing fun like basketball). By comparison, exercise is dirt cheap.

Parole? I wouldn't eliminate it by any means, but I would redefine it. Parole wouldn't mean being released into society pending any misbehavior - It would mean being "released" straight to boot camp. If people want to get out of prison early, (if eligible - no lifers, no rapists, only people with good conduct so far, etc) they can elect serve the rest of their time in the military protecting our country and our freedom with their lives. There is nothing like the military to inspire discipline and order into otherwise worthless people. And out military is strained for manpower now anyways. Win-win. If they decide that the military isn't for them, or have discipline issues - straight back to prison. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. IIRC, prisoners where actually used during WW2 with great success.

As far as working prisoners/chain-gangs go - well it sounds good in theory but there are a few problems. Prisoners doing road work, construction, ditch digging, whatever - well they are competing against actual contractors and such for jobs. And how do you compete against slave labor bids?! That means that although you save tax money, you are now costing jobs for law-abiding citizens and hurting the economy more that you are helping it. You could also easily set up a full machine shop in prison, but the same problem applies. I'd rather have the government take more out of my paycheck then to loose my paycheck entirely.

"Everybody participates in a prison remake of "The Sound Of Music"... performed weekly, practices every night." - I'm pretty sure we have laws against "cruel and unusual punishment" to prevent something like that...

As I promised before - prison overpopulation. First off, stop taking every measure to stop people from committing suicide in prison. I don't have a problem with people committing suicide in the first place(if people want to die so bad - let them). If prisoners start doing that then the prison population will go down some - less mouths to feed and shelter mean cost savings. And I have no problem with fewer living rapists, child molesters, etc - its an added benefit. Throw a razor blade(chained to the wall) in every cell.

Also, how about throwing fewer people in prison? Just how many of those people are in prison for drug related charges? Let those people out and you aren't over crowded anymore. I don't necessarily think drugs are good but - the whole drug war is VERY expensive anyways, ultimately futile, and for what - so the government can enforce laws that "protect us from ourselves?" I think the government has a responsibility to protect us from other people - not to protect us from ourselves. Let people be idiots if they want too. Plus if you sell it commercially, you can collect alot of extra tax money and the sales would also boost the economy too. Legally acquirable drugs would take away the main revenue source of gangs and terrorists networks.




I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?

Fluke97 wrote:hmm, I was thinking about the death penalty the other day. Do we need it? No

now, before i get flamed for being a bleeding heart activist sissy, here's my idea

Mix them in with the general public. Remember Daumer? He lasted, what, 2 months? Maybe? So you put your rapists, your child killers, your molestors, your serial killers, put them with the general public, the mafioso hitmen, the drug traffickers, the gangbangers, the thugs, the thieves.

Get rid of Death Row, and just mix them in with the general public, that way we're trimming the fat of the prison system, while getting rid of our scum of the earth. The taxpayers and victim's families benefit too.

i like your ideas too, very insightful

Problem. Death row inmates have nothing left to loose - so why not kill a few more people? There is a reason they are isolated. Sure you can say they would only be killing other scum bags but that isn't really the case. Not everyone in prison is a serial killer or rapist. Some people are there because they thought a 16 year old was 18 or other minor @!#$. And of course there are some people in prison who are falsely convicted - not the majority granted but they are there. Of course who is to say that those death row inmates don't manage to shank a guard instead? No I think lets leave them separate...

Shifted wrote:^ You can still request an execution by hanging in 2 states I believe, but it is up to the accused to request it. Done correctly a hanging is quick, painless, and mess free. The 13 turns at the top of the noose is meant to snap your neck in a specific spot, causing paralysis and pinching a blood vessel to the brain. You black out in a few seconds and die within 30 seconds from that. You can also get a firing squad in Texas I believe.

O.O If I had to be executed, firing squad has to be the coolest way ever. I would totally request that - in public if possible.




I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?

why dont we all write a novel about it? oh wait......

Hehe... I've got a novel. It's an open ended question... so responses are going to be a little long winded.



Anyhow...

Shifted wrote:We had this discussion at lunch, so I figured I'd get a good rise out of the people here, so here's my mini-rant...

The US Prison system does not work. We spend 10's to 100's of thousands to even convict these people, then 10's to 100's of thousands on appeals, paying for their lawyers. When we do finally convict them, we set them up in an all-expenses-paid "hotel" for the duration of their "sentence" to spend watching TV, getting an education (on us, the taxpayers), working out and playing sports all day. We let them out after serving mere fractions of the intended sentences for "good behavior" where they go right back to the crime filled life they were living before, knowing that if they get caught, its pretty much a paid vacation.

If you call a paid vacation living in a 6X9 cell, having people tell you what to do, when to do it, having no liberties (ie being able to go and do whatever when the mood strikes you) and having some of your fellow inmates being people that are likely to beat you to within an inch of your life... well you and I have a much different version of the way things work.

The Penal system in the US is turning into a warehousing system, of that I have little doubt. However, it's not like its a vacation in that the people there roundly deserve to be there. but more on that after this:

Quote:

The guy I was having this discussion with is a prison pastor, giving religious counsel to those convicted of crimes in an attempt to get them out earlier. He told me that one of his good friends was a man once sentenced to TWO life sentences for raping, desecrating, killing, and dumping two women in a lake. After serving just 23 years of his double life sentence, he "found god", became a pastor, and was subsequently paroled.

Just 23 years? If you figure that the average double murderer is over the age of 30, that puts this guy in his 50's. The number of repeat offenders goes goes sharply down after the age of 40. If this person has made a positive change in his life, and is not a further major risk to society, then why keep him in prison and a burden on your taxes? I mean, you're incredibly simplifying the situation by making it sound like he found religion, and then he was released the next week: more than likely you're talking about 5+ years of good behaviour, and actively helping others straighten out, etc. etc.... Most Parole boards don't take finding religion as the be-all, end-all of reform.

Quote:

So where's the deterrent to crime? Kill somebody, get a short paid vacation at the expense of those the crimes were committed against, and if you want to get out, just "find (insert deity of choice)" and all is forgiven, get out of jail free. Capital punishment is not a deterrent to crime.

You're missing the point: the prison/capital punishment system is a penal/reform system. The surest way to deter crime is to make it easier and more profitable to follow the straight and narrow.

Quote:

Singapore has a sign in one of the overpasses that everybody entering the country goes under, it says in very clear English "DEATH TO ALL DRUG TRAFFICKERS", and they mean it. Upon them finding drugs on you, you are tried, convicted, appealed, and executed in under 2 weeks. The result? Singapore is one of the safest, most crime-free countries in the world. I would feel just fine walking through downtown Singapore falling over drunk with money hanging out of my pockets at 2am.

They also allow caning of vandals, beating of women that are "immoral", prison for people that chew gum on a subway and put it on the doors (look it up, it's not just a simple fine), and if you were drunk and in public in Singapore, you wouldn't be in a drunk tank if you got caught: you'd be in jail or mugged. The simple fact is that as punishment for crimes increases, the skill of criminals increases.

[quotre]The problem with the US is lawyers and human rights activists. In my opinion, those convicted of major crimes (pre-meditated murder, serial killers, etc) that have little doubt of who committed the crime, should have the punishment taken care of immediately. Screw the 20+ years of sitting on death row (more like wait-to-die-of-old-age row), take care of it now.
So.. you just said that Capital punishment isn't a deterrent, yet... you want to use it faster?

Look, human rights are NOT the problem. Human rights and systemic respect for them are what separate us from Communists, dictators and banana republics. You're not whisked out of your home @ 4 am by secret police unless there is proof of wrong-doing, and even then the checks and balances and burden of proof is sizable. This is so the innocent or uninvolved are not harmed by the system that's there to protect them.

As far as serial murder, these people are usually under the radar because they are usually careful, quiet and not outwardly advertising they're sick individuals. If they're kept away from society at large, then I'm okay with that.

Quote:

Knowing that will never happen, here's a policy to get things going...

Everyone's a politician, eh?

Quote:

- Make each inmate pay, in full, for the expense related to the term of the sentence. Start the inmate off with a debt owed (for example, lets say it costs $100 a day for the inmate to stay there, sentence is 180 days, the inmate goes in owing $18,000). Make the inmate work at a wage, cleaning the prison, cooking food, working at a "prison farm" (farm run by a prison staffed by inmates), stamping license plates, etc. If the inmate wants an education, fine, tack on the expense of the books, tests, tutor/teacher, etc to the daily expense. All debt must be repaid, if you work up more debt than you can pay, it follows you after you get out. Don't pay? Go back to prison until you do.

Debtors prison? Are you serious?
Look, first off, you would have to pay these people minimum wage or less because fiscally, this will not work out, and you are guarenteeing them to have a pretty serious debt load after they leave prison.
Second, the people in prison are generally at a low literacy and mathematic literacy rate, so they're already below the level playing field. I don't have a problem with making prisoners work for their own upkeep (most prisons actually have this as an option for offenders that are not likely to harm other inmates), but if you're talking about murderers, violent offenders, etc... you're throwing the wolves in with the sheep... you really REALLY need to rethink this idea.

Quote:

- Humiliate the prisoners. Pink jumpsuits and yellow shoes. Make them work outside in view of the public.

Again, this is a really bad idea if you're talking about a maximum security set up. If you're alluding to the arizona prison, fine, but making the prisoners wear silly outfits won't help much after the initial shock, it will also likely increase resentment and anti-social behaviours.

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- TV? Fine, weather channel, tuned to southern california, so the bastards know what nice weather they are missing.

How about current events, local weather (so they can at least be prepared for what you want them to work outside in) and a something like a classical music channel? Bored prisoners are prone to doing things destructive: like reading.

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- No parole, ever. You get a life sentence, you serve it. You find god? Good for you, maybe god will give you a heart attack to make it out of prison in a box.

And you're going to foot the bill for tripling the prison system I suppose? Good behaviour and earned credits keep the costs down.

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- 4 people to a cell, your exercise time is when you do your job, no basketball, no weight room, no windows, open communal toilet in your cell.

- Bad idea for really violent offenders unless you enjoy negligent homicide suits brought by families of inmates (Yes it does happen). For medium risk offenders it's not uncommon for inmates to get housed in dormitories.
- Bad idea again, mainly because manual labour in a manufacturing setting is pretty repetitive, and that will cause injuries.
- What do you lose with that? Seriously: $300-$500 for a ball, backboards and nets and maybe $3000 on 4-5 paved courts? versus having the inmates go stir-crazy and rise up? Cost and effort versus draconian flaggilation do not at all add up.
- Again, same deal.
- Look up an oubliette... it was a bad idea in French revolutionary times, it's a bad idea now.
- Commodes are normal when there are multiple inmates in a single ward-cell.

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- Family visits? Yeah maybe when you get out.

Why? Why would you do something like that? You're sequestering these people away from society for society's protection... so why would you go and do something like depriving them of contact with their family? That's pretty inhuman.

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- Sexual release visits? Only if you REALLY like your roommates, or they really like you.

It's called a conjugal visit, and while I think that it should be an earned privilege, I don't condone forced sodomy. You're putting people in prison to reform them, not to violate them further.

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- Everybody participates in a prison remake of "The Sound Of Music"... performed weekly, practices every night.

At least let the poor buggers do Cats once in a while, I mean this is just crossing the line man!!!

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Sorry for the rant, I didn't get a chance to get it all out at lunch.

No biggie, but in all seriousness, these kinds of things happened in Russian Gulags, Iraqi prisons, Vietnamese POW camps, etc. etc. etc.

When you de-humanize an inmate, you're only guarenteeing that they end up far, far worse when they leave prison. I won't say that on some level what you're saying doesn't make sense, but realisitically there are a lot of different kinds of people in prison in the US, and to get earned release you need to do a lot more than just get religion: you have to follow a sentencing guideline that will map out what is decided in your case to make you 'rehabilitated.' Prison is not a joke, it's not easy, fun or simple. When they call it hard-time, that's precisely what it is: you will comply or you will be punished. Making it harder is merely punitive: it doesn't do anything except maybe assuage a vindictive part of the subconscieous. If you do that to them, then they're going to be a lot less likely to want to do anything to make their life better because they'll have absolutely nothing at all to lose at that point.

Seriously speaking, I don't at all begrudge an inmate wanting to get their GED, that's paid for by taxes for Highschool anyhow, so it's no less money. College, well, if they show the aptitude and someone (other than the state) can provide equivalent funding, then that's fine by me as well because once they have a marketable skill they're going to be a whole hell of a lot less likely to re-offend because the downside will be far greater. Again, this is the rehabilitative part: make it easier to walk the line than to stray away.

My only caveat is for those that show depraved indifference or malice towards human life, they can just stay in prison until they die. i completely understand that there are some very hardcore individuals that are not going to be able to be rehabbed, and they are the few that really should be kept in spartan conditions, but I'm guessing about 70-80% of the rest can be helped to a degree where they can possibly re-enter society or at least earn a better life on the inside of prison.

The only other thing I'd interject: For every $1 you spend on prisons, if you spent that on catching kids young when they're most likely to learn bad behaviours and thought patterns, you'll only need to spend about $.30. You're currently not even spending $.10 on kids' diversion programs. Hell, divert military research spending by 2-3% and you'll pay for that sort of thing handily.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

The problem with the US prison system is that you all throw people hand over fist in prison without thinking that sometimes a good scare, like being arrested, will do more good than time in jail. Like has been said before, there's more people in Prison per capita in the US than in any other country except China. You love to throw people in jail at the slightest provocation.

However, the simple fact is that a truly free country also allows people to get away with minor-ish crimes. Because if everyone who'd ever done anything remotely illegal had been prosecuted to the full extent of the law by overzealous judges, lawyers and cops, more than 90% of the people on this board would have done jailtime.

Don't believe me? Imagine if you had been ticketed for EVERY time you'd ever gone over the speed limit in your entire life? You'd be in JAIL right now because it would be impossible for you to pay all the damn bills. How many of you have never tresspassed or loitered or swiped a chocolate bar at a store?

As for harsh sentences reducing crime, that's not exactly true. Crime just becomes organized and "legit", just look at Russia of China or the Yakuza in Japan. Japan's one of the safest countries in the world, but they also have some of the most violent gangs in the world. So it's not all flowers and puppies.

As for Singapore, it's not THAT safe. Canada's just as safe and we don't do 1/10th the policing they do.