Remember Elian Gonzales, that little sh1t? Ruby Ridge? Waco? How people complained endlessly about how it was innate to Clinton's administration to do stuff like that?
Why is no one levelling the same kind of wrath towards Bush for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' thing? They took a 400 kids away from their parents!
And now the courts are saying
it was wrong.
I'm not even asking for common sense, I'm just asking for some consistency.
i dont care who you are or what religion you are.......forcing girls as young as 12 to marry old men and have sex/have kids with them is wrong and @!#$ up.
wish they would have burned that @!#$ place down just like waco
Yeah, but that's the thing. Apparently the allegations were baseless, or at the very least they didn't apply to all the kids who were taken away from their parents. I mean the Amish have been accused of molesting their kids, yet Social Services didn't take all the kids away from the entire town. It's ridiculous.
But my point wasn't that, it was just that people got huffing frothing-at-the-mouth mad at the Gonzales thing. But this? Meh... Not much. Yet Bush is supposed to be great friend of the religious. Where's all the fury about religious rights and how the government shouldn't interfere in the affairs of the people? Or do they save all their anger from when a Democrat does it? Because apparently when a Republican does it, then it's A-Ok!
Things like that bug me, they say a lot about people and their supposed values and how much they believe in the things they say.
You know, between you and me? I think most people don't believe a word they say sometimes. They just like yelling at people they don't like.
Knoxfire wrote:Remember Elian Gonzales, that little sh1t? Ruby Ridge? Waco? How people complained endlessly about how it was innate to Clinton's administration to do stuff like that?
Why is no one levelling the same kind of wrath towards Bush for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints' thing? They took a 400 kids away from their parents!
And now the courts are saying it was wrong.
I'm not even asking for common sense, I'm just asking for some consistency.
The Elian Gonzales thing was being handled by the US government and INS. The kids from the church were taken by the state CPS. They aren't even close to the same thing.
yeah two diffrent factions doing the actions
as far as the alegations deal its going to be hard to prove. allot of those type groups are somewhat brainwashed and wont talk. they couldnt even get kids to give them their names. and its not like this was a town. they were from the same house. granted its one frigggin big ass house. but none the less
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
has anyone read the Bill of Rights here?
we burned a church were people were going to on there Free will. what ever they were doing, under there free will, is for them selves to decide. "pursuit of happiness" is for all.
wanna know a secret? in Waco there is a place, about the Waco holocaust....
FYI
read it, or not. really don't care, it happened, and somehow people actually believed that the reason all the AR-15's that they had were melted in the fire......because there aluminum... and we believed it.... because none of us stop and think that the bolts\barrels\ bolt carriers\ front site post\ flash hider are made of steel, and would not melt in a house fire...
or what about the BATF turning the fire department back when they responded to a 911 call? or the BATF\FBI bull dozing the place right after the fire.....last i read (from what they told all us sheap'el) was it is a crime seen........ hmm..
gonzalez was handled by the INS. he was not a us citizen, so he gets booted,
now if only we could do that with all the rest.....
but what ever.
good old boy clinton...
Done.
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
sndsgood wrote:if my house is buring down i'd have enough common sence to exit the building.
My ass.. or how about we try it your way, I'll take a one of my firetream, burn your house with you in it, and randomly shoot in to your house with small arms fire to see if you come out.
survey says?
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
i'd run out. sorry but if im in a burning house I KNOW im going to die, if i run out of the burning house to gun fire i have a shot at survival. either way think about that. most rational people i think would prefer a quick shot in the head with a bulllet versus being burned alive. and im pretty sure they wouldnt be shooting at unarmed women and children who would be running out of the compound.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:has anyone read the Bill of Rights here?
Have you availed yourself of Federal and State Criminal codes?
'Pluralized marriages' are illegal in all 50 states, first.
There were young girls marrying old men (read: They were subborning statutory rape in addition to polygamy), second.
Texas CPS was acting on a tip, since they are Law Enforcement they have authority to enter and seize people or chattel based on that tip (Just like your local police raiding a crack house), Third.
Now if you want to talk about Elian Gonzalez, he's a different case altogether and not really germane to the topic of the polygamist sect. He was in the country legally but his next of kin (his father) wanted him back in Cuba... MAYBE you don't like it, but parental rights exceed that of other family when there's no danger to the child.
As for Waco, it was a totally legal search and seizure warrant for illegally modified weapons that were sold at local gun-shows. They failed to register and pay taxes on the weapons, so whether or not there were in fact any weapons on the premises is irrelevant... BATF had a signed warrant from a judge, they rightly figured there would be armed resistance. The Branch Davidians fired first: You tell me in that case if you're a cop/agent/marine... Do you hold up a piece of paper or do you return fire until you can get safely away? From the moment they opened fire upon federal agents, and did not leave the compound, they chose their own fate and the fate of the children.
I feel bad for the kids, but not for the adults in both cases.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
sndsgood wrote:i'd run out. sorry but if im in a burning house I KNOW im going to die, if i run out of the burning house to gun fire i have a shot at survival. either way think about that. most rational people i think would prefer a quick shot in the head with a bulllet versus being burned alive. and im pretty sure they wouldnt be shooting at unarmed women and children who would be running out of the compound.
They did.
GAM, at the Waco hearings, the BATF had no evidence of what they were looking for with there warrant.
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
That's the point of a warrant though Taetsch. It's an instrument to compel compliance.
If the warrant was baseless:
- A judge would never have signed off on it.
- Any prosecutions that arose from any evidence uncovered would be fruit of the poisoned tree, and inadmissible in a court of law.
IF there's nothing uncovered in the process of executing a search warrant, then the police are obligated to repair any damage. In this case, Branch Davidians fired at BATF agents (who were executing a legally issued warrant). The weapons that were being sought were actually recovered, from the Debris:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#Aftermath
Wikipedia wrote:...the US Treasury Department, in a memorandum to the press dated July 13, 1995 titled "Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians", provided an inventory of all the firearms and firearm-related items that were recovered from the Branch Davidian's compound...
I'm missing how this relates to the TX polygamists, though..
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
I'm missing how this relates to the TX polygamists, though..
?
they found AR15 lowers, not M16. big difference, that all came out in the congressional hearings....
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
I know I'm stretching, but what I meant was that whenever there was a raid like Waco or Ruby Ridge or the one where the guys nabbed Elian Gonzales, it was automatically Clinton's "fault" or occured because of how "Clinton ran the country". However, when stuff like this happens, it's not shot back at Bush. Bush, the guy who's supposed to be this devout religious man who believes in religious freedom.
I just think it's a little unfair is all.
^^^I had a similar question, but one that is more resounding.
Clinton lied to the american public about getting a pugwash.
Bush lied to the american public about the reason he committed american troops to war.
Clinton got impeached, but not convicted.
Bush hasn't.
Not defending the democrats though. They are just as big of @!#$tards as the republicans.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
I'm missing how this relates to the TX polygamists, though..
?
they found AR15 lowers, not M16. big difference, that all came out in the congressional hearings....
Chris
How does what happened at Waco relate to the TX polygamists? The polygamists had no weapons problems, it was centred around child abuse. Stay on point Taetsch, I'm not straying into unrelated territory.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Knoxfire wrote:I know I'm stretching, but what I meant was that whenever there was a raid like Waco or Ruby Ridge or the one where the guys nabbed Elian Gonzales, it was automatically Clinton's "fault" or occured because of how "Clinton ran the country". However, when stuff like this happens, it's not shot back at Bush. Bush, the guy who's supposed to be this devout religious man who believes in religious freedom.
I just think it's a little unfair is all.
all i remember was janet reno catching hell. and it was a goverment deal versus a state deal with the polygamists, two diffrent things. and bush gets just as much unfair criticism as anyone else. hell they knock bush for pretty much everything he does even if he's not responsible.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
I think, again, we're referring to degree. Yes, Clinton was knocked for every b.s. little thing as well, but the difference is that the "moral" (yeah right) "right" (wrong) pretty much tried to hang Clinton out to dry for lying about getting dome, while any time the "liberal" (ass-backwards) "left" (behind) tried to make a serious blast against Bush for him lying about, well, basically the reason he's committed troops to die, they are considered really anti-american and a possible threat to "national security" (never had it to begin with).
Clinton was/is a dumb rat bastard, and so was Bush. McCain is a dumb rat bastard, and so is Obama. Remember, we're dealing with politicians, no matter how much they try to sell prosperity, security, and good fortune, once the package is opened it's still nothing but a bunch of legless reptile juice.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Taetsch Z-24 wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
I'm missing how this relates to the TX polygamists, though..
?
they found AR15 lowers, not M16. big difference, that all came out in the congressional hearings....
Chris
How does what happened at Waco relate to the TX polygamists? The polygamists had no weapons problems, it was centred around child abuse. Stay on point Taetsch, I'm not straying into unrelated territory.
i have'nt...... that i know of talked about polygamists, only waco.
unless i am really lost.
Chris
"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."
Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry
Taetsch Z-24 wrote:
i have'nt...... that i know of talked about polygamists, only waco.
unless i am really lost.
Chris
The thread's about the TX polygamists.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Watch the vieos again. The stairwells were knocked out before the fires were set. It was murder, plain and simple. They didn't run out because they couldn't get out.
PAX
PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)
Hahahaha: They couldn't run because they were dead (for the most part) of single gunshot wounds to the head about 3-6 hours before the final assault. Not withstanding that they had quite a bit of time before hand to leave the compound. Again, with the exception of the children, I don't feel bad about a damn one of them that didn't leave.
Anyhow... Guys, with all due respect to Waco,
make another thread.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Oh no you don't.. You can't make that statement then try to close the door. I have read the autopsy reports and very few claim gunshot wound. What is interesting is that the reports often say "no evidence of gunshot wound" or "Gunshot wound cannot be eliminated" Odd that the examiner was noting the lack of something in a report isn't it? As if they directed to look for specific injuries.. Not normal is it. Many, many people are claimed to have suffocated and/or have been crushed by the "bunker" (tornado shelter) that did not collapse. The reports say it collapsed but the photos showing investigators walking on the roof of the so-called "bunker" tell a different tale. The tornado selter did not collapse, so how did they really die? There is very little credible evidence offered by the state, that is for sure.
The videos are out there, I recorded quite a bit from TV myself.. You can watch the BATF knock out the stairwells, then you can see the fires being set.. In one scene you see an agent running away from a structure with what appears to be a large container only moments before fire is visible in that area. They prevented escape and set the fires, you can see it all in the news reels, provided you recorded the live broadcasts yourself as none of the archive footage has it.
As far as the poligamists go, the state did the right thing in returning the children to their families. Alternate lifestyles that we do not agree with do not give us the right to break up families of 400 children based on one allegation of the abuse of one person. It was all based on an allegation made by a person who has made false statements in the past. Terrible.
PAX
PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)
