When I went to school the nuns used to tell us about how all the unbaptized went to Limbo instead of Heaven because you can't enter the kingdom of God unless you've been purified by the rite.
However, poof, all that dissapeared and no more limbo. Now what happens to babies who die before baptism or the mentally retarded or the good people that aren't Catholic? I mean, they can't be going to Hell, that's a little cruel.
I only ask because I've been reading the bible of late. Screwing with my mom's head. She couldn't believe how violent and sadistic the old Testament is. She'd never read it, when she was a little girl you weren't allowed to own your own bible. Only the priest was allowed to read from it and she only thought there were good things in there.
From an american standpoint, Limbo isn't bad enough to convert more people to the religion so that it has a constant source of donations.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Well, my understanding is that it's almost exclusively a catholic belief. I also don't think that it's in the bible.
HERE is a link detailing some of the history.
HERE is a link to a site that claims that it is not made up and is backed by scripture. Just Google "purgatory history". The argument that no one could enter heaven before Jesus died might mak some since, but to this does not mean that the catholic idea of purgatory ever existed. If you believe the bible, there might have been a place where souls were held before Jesus died, but there would be no use for it now. Also, the bible never says that you can wait there for people to pray for you so you can get into heaven.
HERE is a link to a site that quotes the bible and is highly critical of it. I don't agree with all of their conclusions, but it is interesting. Also remember that some people believe that the old testament doesn't really apply any more and some people even believe that god changed to "the god of the new testament". You might also want to check out evilbible.com, but it is basically the same as the link above. BTW, where are you from? I find it interesting that your mother wasn't allowed to have her own bible.
I'm from Quebec. My mom's french Canadian. The Roman Catholicism here was very strict and fundementalist. Even after the second vatican council it took some time before some of the new ideas from it got implemented here. What's ironic is that Quebec is now probably the LEAST devout place in North America where church attendance is at rock bottom, and probably deservedly so. At the time the Clurgy and Government were in bed together and did some of the most godawful things you can imagine. One particularly unforgivable example was the Duplessis Orphan scandal. People felt so betrayed after it was uncovered that they never went back to church again.
Orphanages and schools were the financial responsibility of the provincial government but funding for mental institutions was also provided by the government of Canada. Beginning in the 1940s and continuing into the 1960s, Quebec Premier Maurice Duplessis in cooperation with the Roman Catholic Church who ran the orphanages, developed a scheme to obtain Federal funding for thousands of children, most of whom had been orphaned through their abandonment by an unwed mother. In some cases the Catholic orphanages were relabelled as health-care facilities and in other cases the children were shipped from orphanages to existing mental asylums. Years later, long after these institutions were closed, the adult children who had survived them began to speak out about the harsh treatment and sexual abuse they were forced to endure at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church priests, nuns, and administrators. Reminiscent of the abuses by the Catholic-run Magdalen Asylums, members of the Duplessis Orphans claim that they were used as slave labour and subjected to extreme physical abuse for misbehaviour.
By the 1990s, there remained about 3000 survivors and a large group formed to start a campaign for justice. They called themselves the Duplessis Orphans after Maurice Duplessis, the premier of the province during that time whose government was responsible for their plight. In addition to government and Church responsibility, the College of Physicians of Quebec came under fire after some of the orphans found copies of their medical records that had been falsified. Labelled as mentally deficient, many of these children were subjected to a variety of drug testing and used in other medical experiments. Released upon reaching the legal age of maturity, they were uneducated and ill-equipped to cope with life as an adult. Suicides were not uncommon, and, tormented as a result of their treatment, crime and other dysfunctional conduct permeated this disabled group of innocents.
Kinda of makes your Catholic priest molestation scandal look like a boring episode of the People's Court huh?
A lot of priests instilled the idea into people that Suffering was a path to salvation and a virtue unto itself and that no matter what you did your sins never washed off unless it was paid back in blood and anguish. In a way we ressembled Spanish Catholicism more than the European/North American version.
And yeah, a lot of my present interest in religion comes from the fact that I've been discussing my girlfriends Baptist upbringing with her and was amazed at how many "Catholic Only" things I thought were universally Christian, like limbo, were not.
Learn new stuff every day huh?
Big 480. Limbo and Purgatory are not the same thing. Limbo is nothing, while purgatory is more like "Hell Light", a place where you could be cleansed by fire. Limbo was for those who had not entered the Kingdom (through baptism) and yet had not committed any sin (like a new born).
PAX
So "limbo" is basically a suspended state that you are in if you pass before you are baptized? What is thought to happen next? In purgatory you may also be prayed for which may help you to gain entrance into heaven, right? In purgatory one is still tormented, correct? I'm pretty ignorant on this issue, thank you for the clarification.
My understanding is that nothing happens in limbo. Absolutely nothing, you basically don't exist.
Purgatory is thought to be fiction. The idea was that you would go there upon dying, hopefully be cleansed of your sin and punished for your deeds for an undefined time. Sooner or later you would be allowed on to Heaven, and real sinners, truely bad people go on to Hell. Of course that pretty much destroys the docturn of repentance and forgiveness while alive eh? In the middle ages scams were run by churches where people could buy their way out of purgatory. I guess prayer may have been said to work as well. Many lies were told.
Didn't Jesus say something like it's easier for a fat man to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into Heaven? Something tells me trying to bribe your way out isn't a good idea
PAX
Well, there seems to be two limbos. One was the "Limbo of the Patriarchs" where every righteous and just man, from Abraham to Moses, went since their sins had not been redeemed by Christ. After the Crucifixion they were allowed into Heaven as Jesus did a little cleanup of Hell.
Then there's regular Limbo. Which was the place that unbaptized babies (one assumed the retarded are there too) who had not sinned. It's not "nothing" according to the Catholics. It's being eternally happy while still denied entry into Heaven. Kinda like if you went to the store to get TAB and could only get Diet Coke.
Come to think of it Limbo is a lot like what Ancient Jews used to think the
afterlife was like. If you read about the old old old Judaic traditions (when they still performed animal sacrifice, so a lonnnnnnnnng time ago) you see that at that time no one had any idea of an afterlife as we know it. One of the reasons that Christianity converted so many people is that it actually had a Heaven and a Hell. While most other religions did not.
HAHAHA: I think you're reffering to the concept of
indulgences. Again a Roman Catholic thing. You see us Catholics aren't forgiven for our sins by praying and asking God for forgiveness. We, instead, go to confession and pour our souls out and the PRIEST is the only authority that may absolve us by giving what is called a Penance. Usually something lame and time consuming like reciting the hail mary X number of times or going around the rosary a couple of hundred times. However, certain sins are so horrible that a simple penance will not do. That's when you ask for an partial indulgence, whereas the representatives of God and Christ on Earth (The Catholic Church) decide to forgive you in the hope that it'll inspire the Holy Father to do the same and at least allow you purgatory instead of Hell.
In fact, that's one of the reasons that Protestants split off from Catholics in the first place. The church was SELLING indulgences. After all, what better way for a rich man to get into Heaven than to become a little poorer right? It was a theologically sound concept, not just a corruption of church doctrine, even if the rich guys would buy the indulgences BEFORE they sinned almost as a pass to do the bad bad things. This was later rectified. Now it kinda goes like this:
Indulgences may only be granted by the Church after the individual earning the indulgence receives the sacrament of Penance or experiences perfect contrition -- he essentially must be in the state of grace. Because the sacrament of reconciliation removes the culpable element of sin, the penitent is restored by reconciliation to the state of grace. However, while the individual’s culpability is removed by reconciliation, the sin is not completely erased; the individual still must be punished for the sin. God has mercy upon sinners who repent their sins, but like some parents, His justice still requires that the sinner be punished for the wrongdoing. In addition, even though the separation caused by sin is removed the repercussions for the sin have not been removed and still require punishment. E.g. if one steals a loaf of bread, the baker still is missing and suffers the loss of the bread even if the thief makes amends. This punishment is called "temporal punishment", both because it is a punishment of time, as opposed to eternal punishment, and because it relates to the temporary world (Earth or Purgatory), rather than to the “final destination” (Heaven or Hell).
^^^ the main reason i put little credence into any religion that sells paradise and offers damnation as a method to convert the masses.
Still, if you look at the american concept of Christianity, as opposed to it aborad, Americans have made it more...how can I say this...polar. It's as if there is little middle ground and everything is, if you bvelive, you're in, if you don't you're out. It's taken a backseat and is more of a spiritual thing rather than a political thing, whereas here it's political. As such, beibng political, for the american churches to have power they need people to buy into the ideas.
Now, coming from a Non Christian, what would get your average person who's non-religious to convert and buy in--assuming that the person was generally good and not a total jagoff?
That if you believe in God and live a good life, you go to heaven and bask in the glory of God, if you were somewhat bad and believe in God you go to purgatory, get cleansed by fire for your sins, and then go to Heaven, if you are evil, or don't believe in God, you go to hell, where it's anguish and torture for eternity.
or
That if you believe in God and live a good life, you go to heaven and bask in the glory of God, if you were somewhat bad and believe in God you go to purgatory, get cleansed by fire for your sins, and then go to Heaven, if you don't believe in God, you go to a place that is not bad, but not the ultimate in goodness, and if you're bad or evil you go to hell, where it's anguish and torture for eternity.
How many of your average americans will say, "well, i'm fairly good, but why go to a place every sunday morning when I could be watching football just to compare clothing, listen to someone tell me how to behave, and give away money? I'll just stick with limbo..."
At least that's my opinion. Religion--being a core system of beliefs that someone has, IMHO is not a bad thing. But once you organize it, you have to sell the idea. Part of the more polar nature of american religion is that it's so much easier to sell that to us--after all, we're still using a basically bipartisan government.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
keeper: america is more polar because it was founded on protestant beliefs. in protestantism there is heaven and there is hell. the middle ground is earth, where we make our decisions, and once we leave here we either go to heaven or to hell. there are no other options or places for people to go
knox: some of us (such as protestants) never believed in limbo to begin with. and i will not purposely insult your religion (half my family--everyone on my dad's side--is catholic and i was even christened catholic), but ive always had a problem with Catholocism, and its basically all the free outs and buyouts that it has. i believe that the choices we make in this life affect where we go in the afterlife and that no matter of praying for your soul will change where you went--after all YOU made the choice. so the idea of limbo never made sense...after all why should a person who died with no sin not have the chance @ redemption, versus a person who died and went to purgatory and may one day reach heaven?
and more to your original question, keeper had it right. in this day and age something more is needed to scare the masses into being good. most people do the "right thing" not because they want to go to heaven and see God, but because they DONT want to go to hell and be punished forever. limbo was a free out in that after you died you just didnt exist anymore.....no pleasure, but also no pain. personally, that doesnt sound like a bad thing to me.
Well, I was raised Catholic. I'm hardly a believer Cav. You can say whatever you want
However, Catholicism isn't full of "free" outs. It's really about self-suffering and anguish over all your sins and taking each and every one into account. Think about it, how many times do you swear every day? How many times have you had non-procreative sex? How many times have you locked yourself in the bathroom with a copy of "Juggs" and pretended you were shaving? How many people did you cut off in traffic? How many times have you had impure thoughts? How many times did you lust? How many times did you envy?
How many times did you eat too much? How many times were you lazy? How many times did you get angry? Show off that new car to friends? That's pride baby! Those are all sins and they all add up and they all must be dealt with. If you forget a sin that you committed deliberately that's a ticket to Hell. So it's best to always punish yourself weekly. Being a Catholic means having to obsess over each and ever slight against the Lord. Remember how in "Mean Streets" Harvey Keitel would burn his fingers on candles every time he did something wrong? THAT'S what Catholicism is. It's not a feel good religion. It's not about the love of God, it's about avoiding Hell. God will have plenty of time to love you after you're dead, but you gotta make it there first and from the minute you came out of the womb you were already a few steps behind with the original sin and God's already angry at you.
when i said free outs i meant all the praying, esp after youre dead. protestantism doesnt have that. you can pray to God that someone WILL change their ways, but you cant do much in the way of praying that God will forgive them. the person has to ask for him or herself. and once a person is dead? its over. no last rights...nothing. by that time the person is in their final resting place regardless if someone prays to St. Christopher or Mother Teresa or whatever. Catholics pray to saints too, and protestants believe that you pray to God/Jesus and thats it....no one can talk to either on your behalf.
i may not be explaining myself well enough, but do you see what i mean? in protestantism dead=final. in catholocism dead=maybe final, but if someone prays for you or you spend a lil time in hell then you might get to heaven. thats a bit too easy of a final decision IMO
limbo?????????????????????
sorry had to do it
Say 15 hail mary's and don't eat dessert for a week
[edit] Latin
Ave María, grátia plena Dóminus tecum; Benedícta tu in muliéribus, et benedíctus fructus ventris tui, Jesus. Sancta María, Mater Dei ora pro nobis peccatóribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostræ. Amen
CavFire (tabs) aka tabasco wrote:when i said free outs i meant all the praying, esp after youre dead. protestantism doesnt have that. you can pray to God that someone WILL change their ways, but you cant do much in the way of praying that God will forgive them. the person has to ask for him or herself. and once a person is dead? its over. no last rights...nothing. by that time the person is in their final resting place regardless if someone prays to St. Christopher or Mother Teresa or whatever. Catholics pray to saints too, and protestants believe that you pray to God/Jesus and thats it....no one can talk to either on your behalf.
i may not be explaining myself well enough, but do you see what i mean? in protestantism dead=final. in catholocism dead=maybe final, but if someone prays for you or you spend a lil time in hell then you might get to heaven. thats a bit too easy of a final decision IMO
Nononono... it doesn't work that way. Catholics don't pray for other people's sins or that other people change their ways. The priest at confession doesn't pray for you. He IS the ear of God. He's the representative of the Lord on earth. When you confess to him, you confess to God. And when he gives you penitance, it's God telling you to not watch TV for a month. See, it's this sort of confusion that I found fascinating with my girlfriend. It's like how I didn't know that you guys didn't have a full-size figure of Jesus on the crucifix. We do.
That one's pretty tame though. Ours are a bit more Passion of the Christ. You should have seen the one I got at first communion.
Or how she was like: "Wait... you don't CHOOSE to be baptized?" Hell no! If you don't get baptized you go straight to Hell. There's no choice to make. You don't screw around with stuff like that. It's sort of like how you have to keep a mental list of all the times you pulled your sister's hair when you're a kid so that you can properly confess to the priest. Otherwise... HELL. There's no salvation through prayer alone. It's all through confession and penitence. You can pray all you want, but if you don't suffer then you don't pay for your sins. Simple as that. It's not enough to ask for forgiveness. You have to bleed a little. You have to carry your own cross and suffer the anguish of each and every one of your sins.
knox: as i said, half my family is catholic and the other half protestant. growing up with my mother, i was raised protestant...but i attended catholic church, etc with my father every time i visited him (i always joked with my friends that i was half catholic--like how you can be half jewish--but none of them were catholic and didnt find the humor in it). so ill admit its possible i was misinformed or simply got my wires crossed with how it all worked because i discussed this with my dad and oldest catholic sister
i was told that the priest (as an arm of God) prayed to God for you and for your forgiveness. you confess to the priest, he goes to God and acts as a intermediary on your behalf. in essence since you cannot go directly to God, the priest does for you. thats not how alot of protestant religions work....they cut out the middle man and let you pray directly yourself.
i was also informed that the priest can/may pray for you when youre on your death bed or already dead. he prays for your soul, asking that God forgive your sins and let you into heaven. again, this is different in that protestants either pray themselves or....well or nothing. either they do or they dont. and once youre dead thats it. finito! no one else can ask "hey God, i know hes already dead but will you forgive bob anyway?"
i was also led to believe that saints could also act as intermediaries on your behalf....keeping you safe and even going to God for you (another intermediary that is working for you). the majority of Ps dont feel that way....its you----->God....nothing else to the equation.
if you are looking for a protestant view on punishment.....only God can deal that out, and He does so regardless if youve asked for forgiveness or even confessed it. did your car break down? maybe youve sinned. or maybe its just a test. but i believe everything bad that happens is one of the two....punishment from on High, or a test. everything good that happens to you is either a reward from God, or a reward from the devil meant to test you (being late for your ride to work only to find out that there was a wreck on the freeway right when you normally arrive would be from God. getting that hot girl to finally have sex with you would be from the devil.) furthermore, saying a few Our Lords or Hail Marys doesnt sound like much of a punishment.
hahahaha: if by ignorant you mean legally retarded--people like lenny from of mice and men--then thats a different boat all together. i was always told that people are judged based on how much they know....hence priests or people who spend their lives in church will be judged more strict than people who have never heard of Jesus or people with perception disabilities like that.
also, you can forgive people for the sins they have commited against you, but that has nothing to do with whether or not God has forgiven them (i.e. they asked God to forgive them).
Yes, in a sense, it seems appropriate to ask God to forgive those who know no better, just as Jesus did on the cross.
My understanding is that when in confession, the Priest is represetative of the Christ, and therefore hears your confession directly, recieves devine guidence and issues pennace acordingly. I'm not catholic, but I have a priest friend and perhaps I misunderstood, but that's how I heard it.
Now, for the Euchrist (communion) the priest IS God (Jesus again as that is God's Earthly form) and while performing the rite does not act as Jesus, but actually IS Jesus. Transfiguresomething, it has a name. This is the key reason given as to why women cannot be priests, because the title priest is given to those who will be required to BE Jesus and the maleness of Jesus is important, just as the feminine aspect is important in creation. Woman can be Ministers of the church and perform almost all of the same functions of a priest, but because Christ was male, priests will remain male only. I would have to dig a little deeper to get a more thought out answer, but this issue of the Priest transforming into Jesus has held my fascination for a while. I still don't fully understand. Fr. Fred (my friend) says that even after going through the seminary and all of the training, many still do not understnad. He said for him it was an eppifany (sp?) and he has difficulty explaining, even though he performs this rite up to 3 times a day. Interesting guy Fred.. He was a soldier, a Presnbeterian minister (when I met him) then a RC priest. He is incredibly spiritual and seems to be able to read people's emotions with little input. He is married, to a nice woman, and has 4 children. He is one of 4 priests ever allowed in after being married. They interviewed him, and seeing his (hmm.. I don't know how to word this properly) intuitive spirituality, allowed him to become a priest even though he is married with children. The only rule they gave that was if something were to happen to his wife, he could not re-marry and remain in the priesthood. Cool eh? I feel priveleged to know the man. He is a rebel in many ways, and although he always follows the doturn, he doesn't agreee with all of it. For one, he thinks priests should be allowed to wed.
I ramble..
You know what? I feel it is pretty simple. God did not create all of this, everything, and us, just to see it wasted on Hell, destroyed, and without value. God wants us to go to Heaven and I feel gives us many chances. Otherwise, all the effort, the creation, the teaching, the sacrifice of Jesus, etc, would all be for not if in the end we all end up in the company of Bealsabub and his minions. Love conquors all. If you can feel love, compassion, etc, then you know what I mean, I think. If you have children, you teach, you strive to help, but you cannot control them. You wish for all the best in their life, and you make efforts to get them there. When they are truely bad, you know they must be disaplined, and as they enter adulthood they may be good again, or they may end up in jail. Only those who make no effort to reform end up in jail (ideally) and while disspointing, it is needed. I think of us as God's children, some of us will dissapoint, and as we enter into spiritual maturaty (death), we may need disapline, we may need jail. Jail for the soul is Hell, the soul is eternal, therefore so is Hell. God doesn't want you there, but sometimes there is no option.
God made evrything we percieve, the enrgy required would be unfathomable (all the nukes in the world wouldn't amount to a fraction of a percent when compared). You think all that effort was just to hand us over to the enemy? I think not.
PAX
CavFire (tabs) aka tabasco wrote:knox:
if you are looking for a protestant view on punishment.....only God can deal that out, and He does so regardless if youve asked for forgiveness or even confessed it. did your car break down? maybe youve sinned. or maybe its just a test. but i believe everything bad that happens is one of the two....punishment from on High, or a test. everything good that happens to you is either a reward from God, or a reward from the devil meant to test you (being late for your ride to work only to find out that there was a wreck on the freeway right when you normally arrive would be from God. getting that hot girl to finally have sex with you would be from the devil.) furthermore, saying a few Our Lords or Hail Marys doesnt sound like much of a punishment.
Well, the style of Roman Catholicism I was brought up on also believed in direct, severe and everyday divine punishment. Like I said, God loved you only in Heaven, on Earth he Judged you. As for Heaven, that was a distant and often underserved place that few were likely to get into directly. Much anguish and suffering was needed to wipe away the sin of being born in sin. Baptism only partially alleviated the sin, but deep down you knew you were guilty.
When I was a little kid I used to have dreams about Jesus, where I would go downstairs in my house and see him standing in the living room. His hands and feet would be meaty messes from the nails. Lung fluid dribbling out of his side. His face crusted so thick with blood that it was almost a death mask. Then his eyes would open and they would be fire and he would point at me and begin to speak and his voice would be like howling and then...
...and then I would wake up.
Every night I had this dream. At the time I believed it to be divinely inspired.
The thing about Roman Catholicism (that I've noticed) is that it couples the angry vengeful God of the Old Testament with the teachings of Jesus. It kinda, sorta, kinda believes in a New Testament God, but not really. Today I'm not religious at all, but that doesn't mean that I'm some ignorant boob that complains about religion without knowing a single thing about it. I complain while knowing FULL WELL about it.
But still, I kinda miss Limbo and Latin and the mean old nuns with the rulers and the Irish priests that always smelled comfortingly of booze and occasionally swore during mass. It felt like family.
knox: i cant say much for booze smelling priests or mean nuns. but as far as the Bible goes, have you (or even most catholics) actually read it? i have--many times--and i'll admit that many parts are open to interpretation, but i dont recall many, if any, places saying that you must punish yourself for sins. in the old testament you had to offer sacrafices for that. but when Jesus came he was the ultimate sacrafice, hence you only needed to ask forgiveness for your sins. i'm sorry to say but i have always viewed the catholic church as a somewhat archaic institution that was meant more for scaring its constituants into obediance than a place that actually was meant to help. why burn yourself or punish yourself physically for your sins? just ask God for forgiveness (and MEAN it) and your golden. i believe it really is that simple. i dont mean to offend you (even if you dont practice catholicism now) but this is one of the problems i have always had with catholocism...its just so....backwards?
Heaven is a place that you are either in, or you arent. it isnt cooperstown.....you cant get voted in next year. there is no "well i might get in if people pray for me" or "maybe after a few years in purgatory i might make it" type of deal. the actions you make on earth determine your final resting place. either you are or you arent.
hahahaha: i wish i could meet your father fred. i live in west virginia, one of the most anti-catholic states in the union. its always nice to be able to hear the other side of the story and it sounds like thats something that he might be able to provide, esp if he was a former protestant minister.
as far as transfiguration and only men priests are concerned....i cant say i agree. again, having read the Bible many times, i dont recall reading anything of the sort. im afraid to say that catholic doctrine has deviated much from the Holy Scripture and seems to have made their own rules and guidelines. Do you really think that Jesus, being one with God and the Holy Spirit, could really have a gender? I dont. i believe we were all created equal in God's eyes, and as such have the same calling regardless of being a man or a woman.
Fubnny how transfiguration was originally a pagan rite:
Take this in 2 ways:
Either Catholicism en masse is ripping off rite from that which it despised
or
All religions have a lot in common and it's pointless to argue who's god has a bigger phallus/mammaries than the other.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
the Christian religion (paticularly the catholic church) has been slowly absorbing pagan holidays/rituals since its inception. Christmas/easter/etc were all pagan holidays. to compete the church decided to make a holiday on the same day--only celibrating their own ideals--to help draw people to their religion. over the years these certain days just became Christian holidays as the original pagan holidays were forgotten.
Quote:
as far as transfiguration and only men priests are concerned....i cant say i agree. again, having read the Bible many times, i dont recall reading anything of the sort. im afraid to say that catholic doctrine has deviated much from the Holy Scripture and seems to have made their own rules and guidelines. Do you really think that Jesus, being one with God and the Holy Spirit, could really have a gender? I dont. i believe we were all created equal in God's eyes, and as such have the same calling regardless of being a man or a woman.
I agree, and disagree..
The "Godhead" or One God, I think of as genderless, except that I think of creation as feminine, but I'll leave that for now. God is one, only one, and therefore has no mate, needs no mate, etc. therefore genderless. God is not wasteful, why have gender, never to be used?
BUT. The trinity
God the Son, Jesus, God on Earth, Our Lord and Savior, was
a man, male, not just "man" as in mankind.
God the Father, man.. Acts like one too.
God the Spirit, without form, or better said perhaps, not constrained by form. The spirit moved over the waters... Man that's a beautiful picture. The burning Bush, not so pretty, but effective. As a word, created all.. Wow..
This stuff.. Just thinking about it.. God is so beautiful, and terrible (big, frightening), and merciful.. It seems that all the emotion we feel, God has 10 fold (more like infinity fold). It seems to me, the acts are all driven by powerful emotion.. The Spirit, and that is were the femine expresses itself, and it's powerful..
But that isn't how Jesus acted, nor appeared.
PAX
CavFire (tabs) aka tabasco wrote:the Christian religion (paticularly the catholic church) has been slowly absorbing pagan holidays/rituals since its inception. Christmas/easter/etc were all pagan holidays. to compete the church decided to make a holiday on the same day--only celibrating their own ideals--to help draw people to their religion. over the years these certain days just became Christian holidays as the original pagan holidays were forgotten.
look up Emporer Constantine, and how he dealt with monotheistic followers, who were outlaws according to the Holy Roman Empire, and his polytheistic people. quite interesting.
but the "church" or bible ascribing to other beliefs goes before the inception of Christianity and the divine birth. I won't go into details, but it's out there.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
FReQ Z wrote:CavFire (tabs) aka tabasco wrote:the Christian religion (paticularly the catholic church) has been slowly absorbing pagan holidays/rituals since its inception. Christmas/easter/etc were all pagan holidays. to compete the church decided to make a holiday on the same day--only celibrating their own ideals--to help draw people to their religion. over the years these certain days just became Christian holidays as the original pagan holidays were forgotten.
look up Emporer Constantine, and how he dealt with monotheistic followers, who were outlaws according to the Holy Roman Empire, and his polytheistic people. quite interesting.
but the "church" or bible ascribing to other beliefs goes before the inception of Christianity and the divine birth. I won't go into details, but it's out there.
Of course. Just look at Judaism and Egyptian Gods.
Amun, for example, was the All-God. A God so powerful that he was both the Father of all the Gods and WAS all the Gods. When you prayed to Ra, you really had been praying to Amun-Ra. Same with Tet, Amun-Tet. Let's see... a Monotheistic God that was everything and created everything? Hmmmm... that sounds familiar. I'm also sure that Amun's similar pronunciation to the Hebrew "Amen" which is related to the word
emuna or "faith" with the same linguistic root, implying that one is affirming with, and of, "the faith" of Judaism.
It's all a coinkidink.
You'd almost think that Jews... you know... CAME from Egypt.
Oh wait...
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
