i have searched this entire JBO site, and read A LOT of posts that have to do with 9/11 and a "conspiracy". i dont think it was a "conspiracy", when infact it was just greed.

i read dozens of posts where one person would say "bush did it" and the next person would say "you are blowing it out of proportion".

the reason im making this post is not to look like an idiot or for all of you to think im crazy. its to give some of you a diffrent way to look at things, and to others this will just solidify what you already know.

i could type hundreds of pages on my findings and research i have done recently, but instead i will let 1 video do the talking for me. i challenge ALL of you to sit down for 1 & 1/2 hours, and watch this entire video from start to end.

im intrested in hearing the opinions of how everything happened if you still think terrorists destroyed our buildings and that the US government or the rich people with deep pockets had nothing to do with it. im not here to flame anyone, no matter thier belief. i just want to see if anyone can still stay close-minded after watching this video.

i was a skeptic before, but after viewing this video that is full of audio and video proof, i dont know how anyon can still think that power players in the US werent involved.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003

i think the families of those thousands of people killed, deserve justice!
thank you for your time.....



- Cameron (CaliforniaCavalier)
- www.csc-motorsports.com (my new NOR-CAL car club site!)

oh god here we go again. im still sticking wiht my theory that it was aliens who launched subway cars at the buildings. i mean @!#$, every other zany theory has been discussed till were sick here, why not the alien launching subway car theory?






You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Stan masterminded it all.

Hmm. It is interesting that WTC 6 burned for 6 hours in 1975 without falling down.

So now we have an example of a building with the same materials and construction that burned for hours without collapse.

Of course we have to have people ridicule anyone who takes a second look.

Take off the blinders folks, there's more to this story.

PAX

thats a LONG movie...



PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO

I have to agree with CaliCav and Haha. I believed what i was told until i watch 911 Loose Change and it completely changed my view on things. If you truly believe that our wonderful gov't would never lie to us, and that they would tell us everything, then you my friend need to wake the hell up. Anyone hear of Roswell? They completely covered that up too and wouldnt tell the people anything. The gov't is only concerned with their own good. They dont really give a rats ass about the citizens, and its a shame. Now granted, I agree that the American people should not know everything about the going ons within the gov't, at least 1/4 of Americans are idiots. I'm sorry to say it, but its true. And you cant have idiots knowing everything. They would probably do some crazy schitte. But then again, the people do need to know the truth. And honestly I think South Park hit the nail on the head last night. Up til now I didnt really have a theroy or idea or whatever you want to call it, about why the gov't would want to do this, but their explanation did make sense. No one wanted to go to Iraq in the first place. The gov't needed a way to make the citizens agree with what they were doing and what a better way to do that than make the people believe that the Iraqi's attacked us, then they will back the gov't when we invade Iraq. The gov't is a bunch of greedy backstabbing arseholes. I do not doubt that the gov't had something to do with this. Whether or not the Iraqi's had anything to do with it, I dont know. But in the end it seems that what they told us happened may not be the truth or at least not the whole truth. So before you come on here and start bashing us for not believing everything the gov't tells us to believe, open your eyes to the world around you and realize that not everything to see or hear is the truth.

I wrote:Now remember, for this conspiracy theory to exist and be even remotely plausible, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these people would have to not only be complicit, but to STILL be an active participant in the coverup.

debunking911.com wrote:

• The Bush Administration, who failed at everything they ever did. Yet all of them and the people below are helping him cover up the largest mass murder in US history... Some of them like Richard Clarke and Paul O'Neil have come out for less.
• The NYC Fire fighters who know more about building collapses than most if not all of them. It's their LIFE to know. Literally! Yet they don't call for an investigation into the MASS MURDER of over 300 of their brothers... Why? (The twisting of these peoples statements for donations and DVD sales sickens me.) We have uncovered the myth about gag a rule imposed on all fire fighters. Only 9/11 conspiracy sites say this. ONE person who sued Bush for not taking action before the event is ordered by the court not to speak to the media about the case. This is not imposing a gag rule on the whole fire department as some of these sites claim. They are lying to cover up this mass murder by the government or the building owner. Why? They don't even know...
  
  Conspiracy theorist bring up an article in Fire House magazine which says the fire department wanted to stop the steel from being sold in order to test the fire proofing and other non-bomb/controlled demolition related investigations. They twist the articles context to make it seem like the fire fighters questioned the idea that fire brought down the towers.
  
  Many of these men and women come from the military yet we are to believe they are so afraid they rather die in the governments next mass murder than come out and expose this.
• The courts for imposing a gag rule [SEE above]
• The NYC Police department who lost over 20 lives. They didn't ask for an investigation. Motive? None...
• The NYC port Authority who lost personnel. Motive?
• All the people in the pentagon who have not called for an investigation. Many who are liberal and centrist. They did or said nothing while people supposedly truck in airplane parts to cover the crime. Why? again, no answer...
• The more than 1,600 widows and widowers of 9/11 who rather have investigations of the decisions which lead to the terrorist getting away with this. They don't want to waste time investigating the mass murder of their loved ones. Even the Jersey Girls. Why? They say it's the money... [note: Whenever killing someone, pay off the relative. They wont say anything.]
• The media (This one I almost believe) who doesn't follow up on the biggest mass murder and conspiracy in American history. It seems no one wants a Nobel prize for journalism. Not only the American media but foreign press like like the BBC and Al Jeezera. Why? No answer here either...
• The photographers from around the world who took pictures of the towers which clearly show bowing of the perimeter columns. These photos support the NIST hypothesis that the sagging trusses lead to the collapse. Some photos also show the core intact shortly after collapse which also not only support the NIST hypothesis but discredits the "Controlled demolition" account.
• Popular Mechanics who debunked these sites are also helping Bush commit the biggest mass murder in history. http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html
• PBS Nova since they created a documentary explaining in detail how and why the buildings fell. None of it said bomb. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
• Everyone in the NIST who covers up the largest mass murder in US history. This independent org doesn't have a moral person in hundreds of employees because not one has come out exposing this so called "Conspiracy". In fact the hundreds of scientist who signed onto the report are willing to not only lie for Bush but cover up the largest mass murder in American history. Some suggest only a hand full can do the job but that's simply impossible. The team in charge of the computer modeling has to be in sync with the team in structural engineers and so on. There are hundreds involved in this investigation and every team has to work other teams using the same evidence and specifications.
• NY Governor Pataki because he sold steel to from the WTC for the construction of the USS New York. If the argument is the government sold the steel in order to cover up the crime then Pataki is one of the criminals.
• The NY city scrap yards because they also sold steel to china before all of it was tested. Bush would have needed to call them up and tell them to sell it before they could have investigated every beam. A task which would have taken years and years not to mention millions more. Ironically the republican Mayor Bloomberg could not be involved since he asked the scrap yards not to sell the steel on behalf of the fire fighters.
• EVERY STRUCTURAL ENGINEER IN THE WORLD who doesn't write a paper for a mainstream peer reviewed journal saying the towers were brought down and could not have fallen due to fire. If laymen can prove things just by looking at videos and reading interviews out of context then all those structural engineers MUST be working for Bush right? Even the ones in other countries. Why? The answer they give is the engineers don't know about Jones work. So in all this time no one has e-mailed Jones's work to any structural engineer?
• The liberals who don't believe the towers were brought down. (Like me) They're helping a neo-con cover-up the largest mass murder in this nation’s history. Why" No clue...
• The CIA
• The FBI
• FEMA
• The American Society of Civil Engineers who have produced peer reviewed papers showing how what Conspiracy Theorist say is impossible is possible.
• NORAD
• The FAA who saw planes which conspiracy theorist never existed.
• The Silverstein Group who they say got together with Bush to blow up the building for insurance money.
• Silverstein's Insurance Company who didn't question the collapse and paid out over 2 billion to Silverstein. Why? Conspiracy Theorist say the insurance company just wants to pass on the bill to the public but they already fought Silverstein in a number of law suits concerning the amount.
• American Airlines
• United Airlines
• Logan, Newark and Dulles Airport for losing the planes
• Scientists and engineers who developed the remote control plane technology
• Installers of the remote control devices in the planes
• Remote controllers of the planes
• Scientists and engineers who developed the new demolition technology and carried out practical tests and computer models to make sure it would work.
• Installers of the demolitions devices in the three buildings
• People who worked at the company(s) the installers used as cover
• Airphone etc employees who said they got calls from passengers
• Faux friends and relatives of the faux passengers or just the faux relatives who claim to have been called by their loved ones or just the psyops who fooled relatives into thinking they really were their loved ones.
• People who detonated the buildings
• Anyone who thinks the conspiracy is a diversion to take liberal activist focus off of real crimes.

09:f9:11:02:9d:74:e3:5b:d8:41:56:c5:63

Oh, and for the record...this was all covered in the other thread about wackos like you.

Here's another interesting tidbit from current events in Baltimore, MD: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.fire12oct12,0,1507257.story

Quote:

The fire took two hours to put out and temperatures reached at least 1,800 degrees

This was a rowhouse fire, not fueled by jet fuel, and yet the interior temperatures in the house reached 1800 degrees. I guess it's still completely inconceivable that the interior temperature in the World Trade Center reached a point sufficient to weaken the steel (NOT melt it...NOBODY ever said it melted).

Every shred of "proof" offered in that video is the same "proof" offered in Loose Change and dozens of other videos and is nothing but "facts" taken out of context, poorly analyzed photographic and video evidence, witness testimony quoted out of context and without proper attribution and (in some cases) outright fabrications.

I'll offer you the same challenge I made in the other thread...

PROVE ANYTHING IN TAHT VIDEO IS TRUE OR STFU. kthx.






09:f9:11:02:9d:74:e3:5b:d8:41:56:c5:63

we are adults here, and there is no reason we cannot discuss somthing like adults. that includes you jimmyz. just because you are a mod you dont have to act like a smartass to try to look everyone else look "stupid". im not a crazy that believes in aliens and all this crap, im a hard working american like most of you, but when reason is waved in front of my face, im not going to look the other way. im satisfied when i have proven to myself wheather somthing happend or not......
so show some respect.

i relize that if there were shreds of evidence in a few videos or a few people saying somthing wacky then it could be misconcieved as bu*l@!#$, but in this case there are so many "coincidences" that just seemed to come together a week before or 2 before 9/11.

maybe you can explain the videos by saying the were doctored or debunk the witnesses by saying they lied, but if you can, please debunk for me the following therories, or truths in my mind:

-the fact silverstien leased the WTC six weeks before 9/11, and outlined in the insurance policy that if a total loss came about due to terrorist attack he could rebuild. did you know he bought the buildings for 10 million, and was going to cost over 1 billion to get rid of just the espostos, an almost impossible job?

- the first "power outtage" in the WTC history, the WEEKEND BEFORE 9/11 where workers inside upgraded internet cables....after that weekend they pulled all the bomb sniffing dogs.

-the fact that all the steel in the building was UL certified. the same certification that all of our household products go through. they tested the steel used for the WTC and it did outstanding. why would it melt now due to fire?

-a few days before 9/11, multiple people complained of excess dust comming out through the vents and thier offices being dusty in the mornings when comming into work.

-the fact that thermite (used in controlled demolitions) was found on some of the pillars at the base of the wreckage....for gods sake how do you ignore this?


if you guys want to continue to make fun and act like jerks, then ill just shut up and take my evidence somewhere else. but this is bu*l@!#$ that ANYONE, government or otherwise should get away with this.

those cops and firefighters died saving people in a building that someone knew was going to come down. have you heard about the people who survived? a lot of the rescue workers and employees around the WTC after collapse have now developed lung cancer because of the espostos.

i dont know about any of you, but im not going to let this stand. if i find somthing that can change my mind and answer my questions, then cool ill swing the other way. because im OPENMINDED

some of you should try it, you see the world in a realistic view.




- Cameron (CaliforniaCavalier)
- www.csc-motorsports.com (my new NOR-CAL car club site!)

JimmyZ wrote:
Here's another interesting tidbit from current events in Baltimore, MD: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/bal-md.fire12oct12,0,1507257.story

Quote:

The fire took two hours to put out and temperatures reached at least 1,800 degrees

This was a rowhouse fire, not fueled by jet fuel, and yet the interior temperatures in the house reached 1800 degrees. I guess it's still completely inconceivable that the interior temperature in the World Trade Center reached a point sufficient to weaken the steel (NOT melt it...NOBODY ever said it melted).

that building collapsed because it was wood and carpet. there is a lot more to burn in a house then an office building. and at the WTC, melted steel was found.

and the temp. in the WTC could have gotten that hot or a little hotter, but it takes 3000 degrees to melt steel. how then is there steel melted after the collapse?

the fire in the WTC was not fueled by the jet fuel. almost all the jet fuel was burned off in the initial explosion. after that it was black smoke which indicates a smoldering fire.

an object dropped through air off the WTC would have taken the same time that the WTC took to fell. how can you deny simple physics? an object like a building if natrually falling would not fall into itself, (being the path of most resistence.), and would not land perfectly on itself at the bottom. it doesnt happen that way.

and for a change, how about you prove that 9/11 really happened the way YOU said it did jimmyz? why do we have to prove what we say? you are the closeminded one that totally disregards physics and reason.




- Cameron (CaliforniaCavalier)
- www.csc-motorsports.com (my new NOR-CAL car club site!)

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:-the fact silverstien leased the WTC six weeks before 9/11, and outlined in the insurance policy that if a total loss came about due to terrorist attack he could rebuild. did you know he bought the buildings for 10 million, and was going to cost over 1 billion to get rid of just the espostos, an almost impossible job?

A total loss clause is STANDARD LANGUAGE in any insurance policy. Terrorism, as much as we want to believe it won't happen, is a potential cause of total loss and therefore is specifically listed in nearly every policy in existence now. Please prove otherwise.

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:the first "power outtage" in the WTC history, the WEEKEND BEFORE 9/11 where workers inside upgraded internet cables....after that weekend they pulled all the bomb sniffing dogs.

Bomb sniffing dogs were in place because of a credible threat several weeks before. Once the threat was deemed to have passed, the dogs were removed. Please prove otherwise.

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:the fact that all the steel in the building was UL certified. the same certification that all of our household products go through. they tested the steel used for the WTC and it did outstanding. why would it melt now due to fire?

Holy crap, look what I found! (emphasis added)

NIST wrote:7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?

In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

Yes, boys and girls... ASTM E 119 has nothing to do with the melting point of steel. It is a certification standard for fire resistance of ENTIRE ASSEMBLIES of a building, with INTACT fireproofing material.

Yes, boys and girls...UL DID NOT "certify the steel" used in the construction of the World Trade Center. UL assisted in the investigation post-collapse. Twisted, distorted, misquoted and out of context facts don't count as "proof".

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:a few days before 9/11, multiple people complained of excess dust comming out through the vents and thier offices being dusty in the mornings when comming into work.

My office is occasionally dusty when I arrive in the morning. Sometimes the air coming out of the vents smells funny. Does this mean our landlord intends to take the building down?

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:the fact that thermite (used in controlled demolitions) was found on some of the pillars at the base of the wreckage....for gods sake how do you ignore this?

This claim has been repeatedly refuted by those at the scene, the people who tested the metal on site and at the scrapyards and on many other occasions. Please prove otherwise.

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:if you guys want to continue to make fun and act like jerks, then ill just shut up and take my evidence somewhere else.

Please do. We've gone through this many times already and nobody has "PROVEN" anything yet.

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:that building collapsed because it was wood and carpet. there is a lot more to burn in a house then an office building. and at the WTC, melted steel was found.

Once again, PROVE this. Pools of molten metal were found in the sublevels of the structure days after the collapse, while fires were still burning and temperatures were still over 1000 degrees C in some areas. The suspicion of most people involved is that these pools of metal were ALUMINUM, as it has a much lower melting point than steel. The entire facade of the building was aluminum. Amazing how that works. Please document where ANYONE tested any of this metal and determined that it was steel. As for "more stuff to burn in a house than an office building"...I don't know what kind of office you've ever been in, but if I had half the crap in my house that I have in my office my wife would kill me. And my office is only 500 square feet. FYI, each floor of the WTC buildings were approximately 120,000 square feet. My point in referencing that article was not that the building collapsed...but to show that even though wood and paper burn at about 450 degrees, when a fire is contained in a closed space the temperature rises dramatically. This is also completely ignored by conspiracy wackos like yourself.

CaliforniaCavalier wrote:but this is bu*l@!#$ that ANYONE, government or otherwise should get away with this.

those cops and firefighters died saving people in a building that someone knew was going to come down. have you heard about the people who survived? a lot of the rescue workers and employees around the WTC after collapse have now developed lung cancer because of the espostos.

i dont know about any of you, but im not going to let this stand. if i find somthing that can change my mind and answer my questions, then cool ill swing the other way. because im OPENMINDED

You're not open minded. You're gullible. Take your crusade elsewhere.

As it is, this thread has now taken the same turn and topic as the previous thread (where you should have posted in the first place), so you can continue your discussion there.






09:f9:11:02:9d:74:e3:5b:d8:41:56:c5:63