I just want you to know a few things before I post an article I found online. I do not look down upon the religious. I was raised Catholic (I knew the mass in LATIN okay?) I may occasionally poke fun but deep down I bear no ill will. Also, I don't believe in interfering with other people's beliefs. Even if I disagree... it's not my life to disagree with.
However, this just flicking blew me away. And you know what? I think even a few religious people here are gonna roll their eyes and go "WTF???" because this is just... out there.
Oh, and isn't the first sign of cult worship, the throwing away of objects that could interfere with the cult's teachings?
YOUTH GROUP HOLDS BOOK BURNING
A youth group at First Assembly of God church held a burning Wednesday night by burning anything they wanted to get out of their lives that they feel is hindering their relationship with the Lord.
Some of the items burned included CDs, DVDs, magazines, books and anything else they could think of. But unlike the negative connotations burnings are generally associated with, this burning was intended to be a positive event for everyone involved.
Mary Johnson, leader of the college and career group at the church, summed up what the burning is about: “Getting rid of junk in their lives that would hinder (their) relationship with the Lord.”
The group has been studying the Bible, looking for ways to strengthen their relationship with God.
“We’ve been going through the Book of Acts looking at the early church,” Johnson said. “(We’ve been) asking God ‘would you do again today ... what you did in that early church.”
The people participating in the burning included students and parents. Johnson said the burning wasn’t the first burning that she has attended. She was at one several years ago in South Dakota and about two years ago was at another one here in Minot.
Johnson stated that a young man from the Air Force asked for the burning, and the church agreed.
The fire, which was contained in a wide metal bin, was on the outskirts of Minot on church-owned property. As more members of the church gathered around the fire, they started clapping and singing along to an acoustic guitar.
Chuck Holtzhower, one of the 20 or so participants of the burning, had a large stack of CDs and DVDs he was throwing into the fire.
“I’m getting rid of things that I do not need in my life for a Christian walk,” Holtzhower said. “As ... somebody who wants the most out of his walk with Jesus Christ, they don’t need to be in my collection.”
Holtzhower wasn’t concerned about the amount of money spent on the dozens of CDs and DVDs he was throwing away.
“I pretty much think it (the money) was wasted in the first place when I bought it.”
He threw his DVDs into the fire with no hesitation or regrets, but accepted help with the dozens CDs from some of the small children.
Though he probably could have gotten quite a bit selling the collection, Holtzhower looked at the big picture when deciding how to deal with the items.
“If I don’t feel that they’re correct for my life, why would I give them to somebody else?” he said. “There’s no other way around it, other than that fire right there.”
After items were tossed into the fire, some offered testimony on their life and where they may have gone wrong in their life and how they were trying to correct those mistakes.
So anyway, to the religious viewing this... SEEEEEEEE??????????? THIS IS WHY WE MAKE FUN OF YOU SOMETIMES! This is why people roll their eyes when you say you believe in Christ and his sacrifices.
The Lord doesn't want people to make big bold empty gestures. Think something is interfering with your religious life? Don't do it or get rid of them. But what you DON'T do is make a big gesture out of it because what it boils down to is self-fellatio and self-congratulation not devout piety. The relationship with God is a personal thing, not a spiritual gang bang. Leave the Lord alone sometimes, you gotta let go of the apron strings and stop trying to impress him. Sheesh!
Anyway, that article just made me shake my head. It's wild stuff man. Weird people.
Jeremy Knox wrote:
So anyway, to the religious viewing this... SEEEEEEEE??????????? THIS IS WHY WE MAKE FUN OF YOU SOMETIMES! This is why people roll their eyes when you say you believe in Christ and his sacrifices.
I don't how something that other people do give you a reason to make fun of me because I go to church. Chances are no one on this board was involved in this. Was it weird? of course. But, it was their stuff so they're allowed to do whatever they want with it. Truthfully, most times on here if someone "makes fun" of someone's religion ( usually Christian) on this board it because it's the cool thing to do here, it's almost encouraged. Sad, but true.
No... you make fun of them because you're retarded. And because you're retarded enough to believe that just because one group thinks ceremonial burning of objects hindering their relationshsip with their god is something all Christians or (insert religion here) do. I personally have burnt items that I felt were not conducive to my overall well being physically or mentally, and find it an excellent method of closure. So, rather than saying... that's weird, what a bunch of freaks, why not say... hey, whatever works for them! and move on.
For the record, I am in no way, shape, or form Christian or Catholic. So don't call me a religious zealot trying to defend my weird habits for Jesus. kthxbye.
Didja all read the part where I say I don't look down on the religious? I think you two might have missed that...
My point with this post was that people like that always give you guys a bad name and THEY suck for it. That was all. I wasn't ragging on you, I was ragging on them. And it wasn't even for their religion, it was for the loud obnoxious LOOK AT ME!!!!!! attitude they have. You know, if they really wanted to burn their crappy Dixie Chicks CD's they could have done it at home, but noooooooooooo... it has to be public. Everyone has to know. FINE, now *I* know and I'm making fun of them the same way I make fun of the gay people when they have a pride parade and dress up as cops in pink leather uniforms. It's not what someone is that I make fun of, but this incessant childlike need to grab attention in any way the person can.
Besides, do you REALLY think I don't rag on pagans and odinists and witches and muslims and jews when they do something bizarre? THINK AGAIN. Also, it's not like you can't make fun of me. There's plenty of things I do that are completely pathetic and fodder for ridicule. Like how I CAPITALIZE words when I want people to notice them or how I babble like an idiot about nothing sometimes, or how I'll argue with people who agree with me. Going to church isn't sad, it's a beautiful spiritual communion with the almighty. Acting like me? THAT'S SAD.
Anyway... carry on.
Instead of burning them they could have donated them to a local library or charity.
Jeremy Knox wrote:Didja all read the part where I say I don't look down on the religious? I think you two might have missed that...
My point with this post was that people like that always give you guys a bad name and THEY suck for it. That was all. I wasn't ragging on you, I was ragging on them. And it wasn't even for their religion, it was for the loud obnoxious LOOK AT ME!!!!!! attitude they have. You know, if they really wanted to burn their crappy Dixie Chicks CD's they could have done it at home, but noooooooooooo... it has to be public. Everyone has to know. FINE, now *I* know and I'm making fun of them the same way I make fun of the gay people when they have a pride parade and dress up as cops in pink leather uniforms. It's not what someone is that I make fun of, but this incessant childlike need to grab attention in any way the person can.
Besides, do you REALLY think I don't rag on pagans and odinists and witches and muslims and jews when they do something bizarre? THINK AGAIN. Also, it's not like you can't make fun of me. There's plenty of things I do that are completely pathetic and fodder for ridicule. Like how I CAPITALIZE words when I want people to notice them or how I babble like an idiot about nothing sometimes, or how I'll argue with people who agree with me. Going to church isn't sad, it's a beautiful spiritual communion with the almighty. Acting like me? THAT'S SAD.
Anyway... carry on.
How does their actions give me a bad name? That's extremely small-minded. When a gay dresses nice II don't think they all do. When a black is good at sports I don't assume they all are. When a Mexican has a good yard I don't assume they're all gardners. When an asian is good at math I don't think they're all engineers. But some Christians burn some books and they give me a bad name?
And so what? They threw their porn, death metal and gangster rap into a fire? It's called group support. Do you make fun of AA-meetings because they all stand up and make big deals of their experience with alcohol? Hey, just stop drinking! Do you make fun of athletes for their pre-game chants and group shouting? Hey, just go play hard!
I really don't know what you're trying to get at.
---
AGuSTiN wrote:And so what? They threw their porn, death metal and gangster rap into a fire? It's called group support. Do you make fun of AA-meetings because they all stand up and make big deals of their experience with alcohol? Hey, just stop drinking! Do you make fun of athletes for their pre-game chants and group shouting? Hey, just go play hard!
Amen, I was just about to say the same thing
..................Which car will hit 400 whp first???..................
Jeremy Knox wrote:So anyway, to the religious viewing this... SEEEEEEEE??????????? THIS IS WHY WE MAKE FUN OF YOU SOMETIMES! This is why people roll their eyes when you say you believe in Christ and his sacrifices.
My belief in Christ and his sacrifices has nothing to be with being religious. Last time I went to church was over a year ago.
You need to differentiate religion from spirituallity. What I have is spirituality, what religious people have is usually propaganda.
Marilyn Manson - Beautifull People (Great song about chronic religious people.)
-Chris
I really don't see what is so crazy about it. They want to get rid of simple material things to gain a better connection with their god. I dunno, doesn't seem that crazy to me.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
i dont see any problem with what they did.
they were only burning things that were theirs. if burning them made them feel like they were gaining some power in their lives, so be it. thats a good thing.
people quiting smoking will sometimes flush tabacco or cigs down a drain or throw them out. they could have sold those to someone else, but it is more the act of getting rid of it yourself in a manner that makes it feel like it is not only getting rid of the physical object but somehow getting rid of the mental and physiological connection with those items.
Creative Draft Art Media Forums
since when does burning DVD's, CD's, and books get one closer to God? It just doesn't make sense to me... they are NOT any better people than a "casual" Christian because they practice these "rituals". The same goes for those wackos that go to those big auditoriums and stand there in huge crowds thinking they are being "saved" by these con artists that pose as speakers or pastors. These guys are putting on a big act for the money they get paid by these "followers". These poor people are brainwashed by religious leaders. You do not need to attend mass worship sessions or burn your belongings and live like Amish to get to know God. You can speak to God whenever, wherever you want... He will not judge you by what you own, but by how you live your life and treat others.
SPITfire wrote:since when does burning DVD's, CD's, and books get one closer to God? It just doesn't make sense to me... they are NOT any better people than a "casual" Christian because they practice these "rituals".
I guess you don't know what symbolism is?
And the wackos at some megachurches have nothing to do with this. Don't muddy their dirty ways into this topic, please.
---
right its symbolizes things that THEY feel contradict beliefs or ways of lifes that they believe in.
it doesnt get the "closer" to god. what it does is make them feel like they are getting rid of bad things in their life. havent you ever had a ton of paper work from old stuff and were keepign it for months. and then finally you decide just to throw it all away? you could have kept them, but getting rid fo them gave you a feelign of accomplishment and starting anew
Creative Draft Art Media Forums
Quote:
And the wackos at some megachurches have nothing to do with this. Don't muddy their dirty ways into this topic, please.
I think that was the whole point.
All Jeremy was trying to say, I assume, is that he thinks the people burning all of their belongings are nuts, too, presumably because it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with getting attention.
But I suppose it's all point of view. One man's trash is another's treasure, and all that.
And symbolism is grand and all, but I think it's the public spectacle that Jeremy took issue with. Now, whether or not they intended to publicize their little bonfire is the issue.
If a reporter just so happened among it and made a story of it, then it's no different than the analogies you used--a private group having their own little meeting to support one another which just happened to get into the paper.
On the other hand, if they did it for attention and invited the media, that's stupid and your analogies don't fit. You don't see AA groups inviting the media over, or see the captain of the football team pull a camera man in so he can film the chant.
So, it all depends on their motives, I suppose. It's hard to say either way without knowing the whole story.
If was a public spectacle, what does that matter, either?
Should I shy away from the National Anthem because it's a spectacle?
Should I look down upon political demostrators over their spectacles?
What's wrong with a religious spectacle? Why is it expected that people of faith need to be quiet and to themselves?
---
Quote:
All Jeremy was trying to say, I assume, is that he thinks the people burning all of their belongings are nuts, too, presumably because it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with getting attention.
They were burning CD's/DVD's/books, ect. Not all of their belongings.
Quote:
And symbolism is grand and all, but I think it's the public spectacle that Jeremy took issue with. Now, whether or not they intended to publicize their little bonfire is the issue.
Here is the answer to that...
Quote:
The fire, which was contained in a wide metal bin, was on the outskirts of Minot on church-owned property. As more members of the church gathered around the fire, they started clapping and singing along to an acoustic guitar.
Chuck Holtzhower, one of the 20 or so participants of the burning, had a large stack of CDs and DVDs he was throwing into the fire.
Not a big public specticle. It got in the news and a lot of stuff does. Doesn't mean they are trying to start a revolution. Again, I don't see what the big deal is. It seems like the people who claim that they don't believe in this or that, athiests, and those who are supposidly "laid back" when it comes to religious things get all worked up over religious issues.
It is America. Let them burn their crap and feel good about it. It's not like they were starting fires downtown or burning OPP because they thought they were evil. I just think everyone needs to take a step back and a deep breath. Don't know why everyone has to get all up in arms over what other people do on their own time with their own stuff on private property.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
AGuSTiN wrote:If was a public spectacle, what does that matter, either?
Should I shy away from the National Anthem because it's a spectacle?
Should I look down upon political demostrators over their spectacles?
What's wrong with a religious spectacle? Why is it expected that people of faith need to be quiet and to themselves?
Augustin...
Burning your things... IS INSANE! Doesn't anyone see that?????????? It's like when women burn their old love letters from exes before they get married. Why are they burning them? Just shred them and toss them in the garbage. Even when it's a private thing, it's WEIRD. What kind of medieval superstisious pagan ritualistic nonsense is this? What year is this? What country is this? The fact that a bunch of people got together to watch each other burn their crap is ODD. degenerated is right on the money when he said that it was the spectacle that got to me, but even when it's just a private thing between friends, it is bizarre for a group of 5 or 6 or 12 people to just hang out and watch each other BURN their expensive things. There's no two ways about it.
Besides, it's a symbolic act and I loathe that. You know why? Because they're usually used as a pretense of doing something without doing something. It's like the people who feel patriotic while singing the National Anthem at a football game then drive by the town's army barracks without sparing a thought for the lonely wives and widows of soldiers. They don't stop to offer a few bucks for grocery money, or free car repair at their shop, or babysitting services for the woman's kids. They don't do a single thing to TRULY show patriotism but they know all the songs and chants by heart and by golly they must have 20 flags in their yard. It's like those guys who go to AA every Sunday like clockwork for entire decades... and don't stop drinking. "BUT I GO *hic* TO AA!!!" is their excuse. They don't DO anything, but all the symbolic gestures have been taken care of.
Just the fact that they had to burn these things instead of just getting rid of them SCREAMS of self-pretentious and meaningless symbolism. It's like wearing a chastity belt because you can't stop masturbating. Hey hombre... it's YOUR hand.
Symbolism is nothing. The will to follow through with your ideas is everything. Willpower will keep a man who should be dead still alive for a few more minutes so he can say goodbye. Willpower will make a mother lift a car off her child. Willpower will make the worst drug addict in the world never touch the stuff again. But willpower all depends on the person's resolve. It's not what he wants that counts but what he does. Whole world of difference.
Know what? Between you and me? I did somewhat bite my tongue after I posted this thread because I realized that I have a deep love for Buddhism and that there is more than a little symbolism in that particular religion, especially the casting out of material things in order to focus on a spiritual life. However, I would still poke fun. The difference is that the buddhist monks would either not really care or laugh with me. Those guys are in a whole other zone. They're not trying to be a part of society and be religious at the same time. They've stepped out. They don't need society to accomodate them. They just are who they are. I admire that.
Why are religious people expected to be quiet? Because faith is a secret between you and God. It's a conspiratorial whisper late at night that you both share. And the louder you are, the less you hear his voice. Is that what you want?
As for Political Demonstrations. I feel don't feel that they're symbolic most of the time, usually they have a very active and definite point to them. Hundreds of thousands of people amassing with the very concrete goal to scare the hell out of people in office. The message is clear: "What if we marched right into your offices?" That's why I think it's bogus to hold these polite designated area protests. One of the reasons that the government stopped listening to the people is that they've stopped being afraid.
Totally off subject.
You know, right here, right now... we've all captured it in a bottle for a fleeting moment. That big huge religious divide in America. This is it right here, between us. A handful of messages on the board show it. Some of you just do not (and will never probably) understand why I could see this as being odd, and others do. And that right there is what the divide is.
Quote:
right its symbolizes things that THEY feel contradict beliefs or ways of lifes that they believe in.
it doesnt get the "closer" to god. what it does is make them feel like they are getting rid of bad things in their life. havent you ever had a ton of paper work from old stuff and were keepign it for months. and then finally you decide just to throw it all away? you could have kept them, but getting rid fo them gave you a feelign of accomplishment and starting anew
if they were just good old boys hanging round burning stuff for no damn reason I'd say, "fine, do what you want". If a normal person wants to get rid of something or clean house, just throw it in the dumpster or sell it on EBay or something, like a NORMAL person. The fact that they bring God into something as strange as burning belongings makes no sense. God is not judging them for owning movies and music! What does a feeling of accomplishment for throwing a DVD out have to do with God? The first sentence says something contradicts their beliefs... what religion besides a ultra-conservative cult condones burning your belongings?
Quote:
I guess you don't know what symbolism is?
And the wackos at some megachurches have nothing to do with this. Don't muddy their dirty ways into this topic, please
drop the sarcasm... I just mentioned that because they are both wackos. There are always some attention-whore religious zealots that have to stir the pot to get attention. They are fundamentalist Muslims without the bombs.
If you think that a bunch of inanimate objects are interfering with your life, you don't need less objects, you need more reality.
Seriously, if you want to be THAT pious, then what you have means nothing ultimately, so who cares if you have it or not? The burning is a symbol, of course, but, it's an empty one. You can sell, give away, donate to a library.. whatever. Burning books, CD's DVD's... information on the whole.. they did it in a lot of places for the wrong reasons, the article itself isn't the problem. What significance you assign to it is. Why wasn't there a greenpeace nutter out there while the guy with the CD's was loading up? There's scads of extra poly carbonate resin in the atmosphere because of this.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Quote:
If was a public spectacle, what does that matter, either?
Because there is a point where you do something because it matters to you, and where you do something because you think it should matter to others and want everybody to know what you're doing.
That's the difference. Singing the National Anthem is usually not a spectacle in the sense that it's unusual. You should be able to recognize that difference. Political demonstrators...well, I guess it depends on what they're demonstrating against.
Quote:
The fire, which was contained in a wide metal bin, was on the outskirts of Minot on church-owned property. As more members of the church gathered around the fire, they started clapping and singing along to an acoustic guitar.
Chuck Holtzhower, one of the 20 or so participants of the burning, had a large stack of CDs and DVDs he was throwing into the fire.
I remember reading that, just not remembering it, if that makes any sense
.
Anyway, I'm not saying it's a big deal. I really don't care either way. What they wish to do is their own business. I think, however, that the point is Jeremy thinks they're crazy for doing it. In a way, so do I.
Would I burn my stuff because I thought it was leading me down the wrong path? Probably not. But I don't need that kind of "symbolistic ritual" for closure. In fact, I save EVERYTHING. But then, somebody probably thinks that I'm strange for doing that, too.
I have no issue with the religious aspect. My problem is when it's done more out of need for attention than it is for what they say it's for.
honestly i could care freakin less.
if burning some objects, they feel are not in alignment with what they believe they should own, makes them feel better and closer to their religious ideals than go for it.
burning some of their own possessions make no difference to anybody.
of course they could, sell, throw away, shred whatever. but for whatever reason that doesnt have enough physcological meaning to them. the burning will make them feel cleansed of what they feel they were doing wrong as well as actually getting rid of the object.
once they start calling out for all people to burn their evil dvds and cds as a whole then ill have a problem. until then, they can have fun feeling like burning of their physical objects is bettering themselves.
Creative Draft Art Media Forums
I think you guys have problems with it because you WANT to have problems with it.
If this reporter stumbled into this private burning, then they did nothing to attract attention. Symbolism is symbolism. From the smoker who quits smoking mid pack instead of finishing it, to the alcoholic who destroys every bottle of booze.. who cares? Sometimes you just have to toss things out with authority and just say "To hell with that. THIS IS IT". It's called momentum.
Second, if they called the reporter out, so what? Let people see what they did. Who knows? Maybe someone who's addicted to MMF porn will say, "man, I can't even enjoy sex with my wife anymore. I should do the same". Or maybe it'll be a criminal released from jail who will see a support group to help him stay straight. Maybe it'll be a kid who's fallen in with the wrong crowd who sees that people CAN (or least try) to swing 180 from their ways.
I saw NO ONE claim they were instantly better people in this article. You guys just need to relax. For you to scoff at people who want to publicly say "I want to be a better person" is worse than anything they have done because YOU CANNOT PROVE anything they did supports your arguments against it. You just assume they do. Now THAT'S self-pretentious.
Quote:
Burning your things... IS INSANE! Doesn't anyone see that?????????? It's like when women burn their old love letters from exes before they get married. Why are they burning them? Just shred them and toss them in the garbage. Even when it's a private thing, it's WEIRD. What kind of medieval superstisious pagan ritualistic nonsense is this? What year is this? What country is this? The fact that a bunch of people got together to watch each other burn their crap is ODD. degenerated is right on the money when he said that it was the spectacle that got to me, but even when it's just a private thing between friends, it is bizarre for a group of 5 or 6 or 12 people to just hang out and watch each other BURN their expensive things. There's no two ways about it.
Get off your high horse. This is the most illogical paragraph I've ever read. You have earned no right with anyone to look down at people you know through only an article. You've accused them them of being self-pretenious, pagan-like weirdos. Via information gleaned from an article...that you're not sure is accurate...from an event you did not see...done by people you do not know.
Why don't you call that church and report back to us that they are exactly who YOU say that are? If you had spent half the effort finding out some facts and filling in the holes, you might not find them to be so bad. Or you might.
But you don't really know. You just think you do.
---
Quote:
I think you guys have problems with it because you WANT to have problems with it.
Not at all. In fact, I really detest people who argue for the sake of arguing.
This isn't newsworthy. At all. So I really don't care, but I do wonder why it was in the news in the first place. I'm guessing it's because burning your belongings in a group setting isn't a normal occurance, but what do I know.
The only issue I would have, is
if these people did what they did for attention so that they would be
perceived as better people. If they didn't, and it was done for personal reasons which happened to get into the newspaper--then great.
Unlike Jeremy, I don't think doing it as a support mechanism is bad (perhaps strange, but I'm not judging because it's not my cup of tea), but I do think
having to have other people know about it is a problem, because at that point you're just going, "Na na, I'm better than you," because I'm not doing the same thing.
There a lot of holier than thou attitudes out there, and I really can't stand that.
Quote:
I saw NO ONE claim they were instantly better people in this article. You guys just need to relax. For you to scoff at people who want to publicly say "I want to be a better person" is worse than anything they have done because YOU CANNOT PROVE anything they did supports your arguments against it. You just assume they do. Now THAT'S self-pretentious.
You're not going to find many people claim they're better than you when they do something. Generally, they'll imply it. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I want to be a better person." There is something wrong with saying (in not so many words), "I
am a better person."
Are these people guilty of it, I have no idea, because as you said, there's really no way to know from an internet article.
In fact, I'm not really saying anything about those people. I'm talking more in general, using this article as an example. For this group, I have no idea what their intentions really were.
how many people saw this on the news? or is it just some small town that the news had nothing else better todo that day then go watch people feel better about themselves?? I could see it if it were on headline news or some national watched channels that y'all are arguing about then i guess thats okay. If Jeremy didn't post it who would have actually have known about it to really cause a problem if any?
