Kinda felt like the immigration thread stirred this up a bit.

What is everyones feel on this?

Personally I hate it. It's hard enough being in a field as competitive as IT without having to worry about a company outsourcing their software development to a company in New Delhi because they'll work for peanuts.

I also view it as a bad move in a community sense. The company makes money in america and gains profits from it. By outsourcing the jobs to other countries they're not supporting the comminity in which they reside. Kind of like milking a cow but not feeding it.


-Chris

agreed on your opinion. it's hard enough being a tech with a college education but no experience - no one wants to give them experience because they're all outsourcing, so those techs end up stuck in dead-end jobs that have NOTHING to do with their original intentions for work.



R.I.P. Brian St.Germain

MS Walk April 21 - I HIT MY GOAL!!! thanks to those of you who have supported me!

Don't boo hoo too much.. There are people out there making peanuts in just about every field. Wanna see imbalance, look at social workers in distress centers. They talk people out of committing suicide for about $10/hour. Does that seem right?

Then there are those who are trying to make a living through artwork. We all want posters and painting on our walls but we sure don't want to pay for them.

PAX

Outsourcing is something everyone will have to deal with. I have no problems with it. The world has been a global economy for a few decades now and the rest of the world is catching up to the U.S. and other industrialized countries. That means that jobs will go to those countries until they reach the same standard as the U.S.

All of you techs, you should have been careful when you selected your major in college, like I said, this is something that everyone needs to pay attention to before making decisions like that.

The citizens in these industrialized countries (especially U.S.) finally need to realize that the world economy does not revolve around them. Afterall, this IS free marker capitalism, get with it people, you didn't mind when the U.S. reaped all of the benefits from the third world countries around the world and messed up their economies.

I quote Evil Overlord rule number CLXXIX (179 for those not versed in roman numerals):

I will not outsource core functions.

Considering how most of the core functions of most companies/government agencies are being outsourced, you can tell we're doomed.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Hi and welcome to the 1970's. This has been going on since before some of you guys were born. Nothing new and it ain't gonna change.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Considering that most companies that DO outsource to places like India, Taiwan etc... are utterly astonished how much it actually costs to move operations there, and how much they need to actually DO in order to achieve a successful operation, I really wonder if someone actually thinks it through for a few minutes...

What you save in labor, you lose 3-4 times in startup costs like infrastructure ( believe it or not, companies like HP/Compaq, Dell and IBM had to actually pay out to upgrade Bangalore India's power grid to the tune of about $25 Million dollars in order to get the Sutherland Group's call centers there up and running), and then hiring and training people, AND THEN they have to pay extra for the telecommunications (either Satellite in the case of Dell, or Fibre-optic in the case of HP/CPQ or IBM), and then they have to put up the building which mean paying contractors getting permits and paying bribes....

Here in North America, they can pay out 1-3 million and have a building, power and in a lot of cases, full communications facilities for desktop operations, Move in all the stuff they need and have a few hundred techs working inside 3 months.

They'll pay triple for the labour, but, they're not laying out $75million before they've done 1 day's paying work.

It's one of the reasons I don't invest in computer companies. They still haven't learned.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM: you bring up a good point. I was reasearching into tech industry's and in many casses the cost is about the same after you look add maintanence costs. Working on their time schedule instead of a US one for meetings and testing, communication, etc.... Dell computes has actually been hurt because of outsourcing their tech support to foreign companies.

UpstateNYZ24: I was carefull and I have a very broad knowledge base. What annoys me tho is when a company would rather hire someone overseas instead of myself even tho I am more qualified and can do the job much faster.


What I'm getting at here is that its corporate responsibility to help the community it is part of and the best way they can do this is by providing jobs.

Its really @!#$ty that a multibillion dollar company profits off the people of the US and businesses of the US but does it all by paying wages to people in a completly different country.

I'm a firm supporter of free trade, but I don't think labor should be part of it.


-Chris

Rascal: Dell, Hp, Compaq, IBM and a few other larger consumer computer manufacturers have contracts with a company called the Sutherland Group. SG has been responsible for undercutting 30 contracts from Adecco, Swift Networks and Convergys and shutting down over 80% of North American consumer support operations.

My job with Compaq consumer product engineering was liquidated when SG undercut Adecco's bid, and sent it to India... whereupon, my engineering department's projects (which were all under budget AND ontime or only slightly delayed) went sideways. Compaq was trying to engineer an online-repair/diagnosis utility suite that would work through XP's Online support utility. That's pretty much 3 years delayed. It was a solid business decision though.

Upstate: The validity of other people being able to do the job cheaper is tenuous. When CPQ/HP moved operations to Bangalore India, the average in-warranty service event ran the company $15.85. When it was based out of North American call-centers, the average for my call-center was $8.14. If my math serves me, it's a savings of -$7.71 .

Sound business.

If you factor in that most people get so pissed off that they can't understand the support agent that they hang up, sure... makes great sense... people will just not buy the product again.

Again, sound business.

Indian call operators would be fine for Mid-east help, but, for North America? That's dubious reasoning.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Iamrascal: This was going to be my next topic I was going to post. This issue makes beyond angry. For everyone, i've done quite extensive research on this topic (did a 40 minute college presentation plus a 30 page paper on the topic with references). Overall. We outsource FAR too much. And trust me; it's cheap to do. Companies save BILLIONS from outsourcing and giving money to update power grids in India is worth it. Even the United States Postal Service outsources! This is a major issue that is always in the forefront of politial debates between presidential canidates. However, since big business RUNS this country, politicians just blow smoke up american's a$$es. From an economical POV, it's great for americans. Think of Wal-Mart. People love wal-mart because it's cheap and your dollar goes further. Wonder why all electronics have become so cheap (computers, cell phones, digi cams, mp3 players, dvd/cd players, tv's, CARS)? It's all because it's all made over seas. It's cheaper for companies to get the raw materials from one country, ship them to another country, make the parts from the raw materials, then ship all the parts back to the US for assembly, and STILL save billions.

Economists say it's great because things are cheaper, however if no one has a job, it doesn't matter HOW CHEAP a product is. If your making 0$, your spending 0$.

A large part of the problem you ask (and this will spark a large debate)? Is...... UNIONS! Unions are killing this country and forcing businesses to go overseas. Automobile manufacturers (the ones that put our cars together in the U.S.) make around $65 an hour. Union officials lobby, make workers go on strike, all because they make a large sum of money off of it. I understand why some jobs need unions (especially back in the 20's-50's), however today, there are so many governmental laws in place that many of these unions are not needed because they are already protected.

A few years ago in california, longshoreman (those who control and load/unload at all the west coast ports (where everything from asia comes in to) went on strike. They are unionized and is costed the government BILLIONS for each day they went on strike because so many of our goods come from asia. They now make 6 figures a year because they have the country in a choke hold. If they wanted a million a year, they could get a million. What many of these unions are doing is legal extortion.

My solution? Offer large tax breaks to companies who run their entire operation on U.S. soil, eliminate many unions, eliminate minimum wage, and avoid illegal immigrants working the remaining manufacturing jobs in the U.S. which make far below minimum wage.

Many people on the other side of the fence say "Well the U.S. started the IT boom which created jobs and our ingeniuity will allow us to invent something new which will employ americans." But in the grand scheme of things, American's aren't the most intelligent people in the world anymore (not saying we ever were). But in time, other countries will be just as good, if not better at inventing new things where american's will become obsolete. Were headed in a very difficult direction, and it worries me greatly. To me, this is not like the illegal immigration topic where my mind will not be changed. I've done far too much research go have this opinion and i'll debate anyone till I'm blue in the face who thinks outsourcing is a GOOD thing.


One more thing before i go... TRUE STORY: A Seattle based contracting company receives bids for blueprints on the development of new buildings. They make $50,000 for the blueprint. They outsource the blueprints to India for $10,000 and pocket the $40,000. It's only a matter of time before people just skip the US contracting company and go straight to India. Think your job is safe from outsourcing? Think again.






"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

Also, India is becoming smarter. Call dell? Sounds like your talking to someone right across the street. No accent or anything. That's becuse to get a job at a call center in India making around $4 an hour (which is BANK for them), they have to obtain a 4-year degree from a university and compete to get the job. They then take classes on how to speak english with NO accent. They learn southern accents, new york accents, british, etc etc. From manufacturing, to R&D, to banking, to customer support, marketing, advertising, contracting, consulting, IT, it's all overseas people. The only way your job is safe is if your perform some kind of manual labor (chef, plumber, auto mechanic, repair tech). And if you think of these jobs and who works them, out in california it's mostly illegal immigrants getting paid under minimum wage. Between immigration and outsourcing, good luck finding a job in ANY field.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:If you factor in that most people get so pissed off that they can't understand the support agent that they hang up, sure... makes great sense... people will just not buy the product again.

Again, sound business.

Indian call operators would be fine for Mid-east help, but, for North America? That's dubious reasoning.

You ain't kidding there GAM. My dad owns a Hewlett Crapper and my brother-in-law owns a Compaq and both of them said they will never buy another HPor Compaq due to the @!#$ty customer service they recieve over the phone.

uecavboy wrote:Also, India is becoming smarter. Call dell? Sounds like your talking to someone right across the street. No accent or anything. That's becuse to get a job at a call center in India making around $4 an hour (which is BANK for them), they have to obtain a 4-year degree from a university and compete to get the job. They then take classes on how to speak english with NO accent.

That's because you ARE talking to someone that might be across the Street. Dell got serious consumer backlash about their Consumer/Commercial support operations to the tune of losing 5% market share (consumer is nothing, but Commercial is where it hurts). They've contracted with Convergys in Florida to open a 2500 tech call center in Ft. Lauderdale, and there are plans to open a call center in Toronto and Montreal for US/CDN/EU/PAC-Rim service.

The average wage for a Sutherland Group tech is $19 a day (whereas, I was getting $22 an hour as a call-tech). They have many people that are well educated, but, they are mired down in a world where they can't afford the computers they service. Most of the imperious or industrial ones move to Europe or the Pacific Rim or in some cases North America to make real money. I will be quite frank, seeing how most of those people did their work @ Compaq/HP.... They're not worth the pittance they got, and if they indeed HAD a University or college education, it wasn't evident in their work.

Quote:

They learn southern accents, new york accents, british, etc etc. From manufacturing, to R&D, to banking, to customer support, marketing, advertising, contracting, consulting, IT, it's all overseas people.

Again, you're talking to Americans, Canadians or Euro/Brit-expatriates. BTW, most of Dell's Non-branded components are made by a company called U-wave which is based out of Taiwan, and their engineers are based in Vallejo California.

Quote:

The only way your job is safe is if your perform some kind of manual labor (chef, plumber, auto mechanic, repair tech). And if you think of these jobs and who works them, out in california it's mostly illegal immigrants getting paid under minimum wage. Between immigration and outsourcing, good luck finding a job in ANY field.

Unless you can get a leg up, or own your own business.

The US's economy is changing from a manufacturing based economy to an information/services based economy.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM: you may be correct that they are moving some call centers back to the states however i asked where these individuals were from (i've called many times). And "Susan" was from the India as well as "Mark". These people use american names to make callers more comfortable. And it's not just Dell, it's many other companies. The people I have talked to were NOT just down the street. And how can an IT grad get a "leg up" on the competition when someone in India has the same degree and it willing to work for 1/3 of the price. America is also not turning into an information/services based economy. Many R&D teams for companies do have SOME individuals from America working for them but much of their overall jobs are shipped overseas.

My hometown is the birthplace of IBM. Our economy at one time was sky high with all middle to upperclass citizens living in my town all working for IBM. In the pst 10 years, IBM has eliminated ALL jobs from this area. Laying off people by the 1,000's. My town has now became a run down ghetto. Where did all those IBM jobs go? India. Now please explain to me how that is good for the economy? You once had arround 30,000 people working in my town that earned money and pumped it back into the U.S. economy. Now, these IBM employees are living in India and pumping their earned money back into the Indian economy. Sure, some of the jobs lost were manufacturing jobs, but the majority of the 30-40,000 jobs were all engineering, R&D, tech development, top management, etc, etc. If this country was ONLY outsourcing manufacturing jobs, it would be one thing.

Now you talk about the Sutherland group. I'm not sure if that is the company that handles most of the outsourcing or not but if it is i might have a point. $19 is the AVERAGE wage. That's factoring in probably all the jobs they handle (some that could very well be a higher paying job then call support). So sure if you factor in ALL their jobs, it could balance out that their paying people in India. Also, never believe what a company says. I know for a fact that these people working the call centers in India are not making $19 an hour. But for the sake of argument, let's say they are. And lets say they are employing 10,000 people in India to work call centers. That's $30,000 an hour they save by having call centers in India and not in the U.S. where they were paying $22. They also are open 24 hours a day hour day, that's $720,000 they save A DAY. Ok now lets add in that they work 7 days a week. By my calculationg their saving 5,040,000 a week. 52 weeks in a year right? Grand total savings for the year; $262,080,000. PLUS these people in india all have 4 year degree, increasing the quality of service. So updating a power grid for 25 mill? That's chump change compared to what their saving. An GAM, I can assure you these people in India aren't making $19 an hour and are employing more then 10,000 employees. So that number i just gave you is a LOW estimate.

Back to unions. If people in America are making $65 an hour to assemble automobiles because of unions and a company can have the cars assembled in korea for $5 an hour. Do the math on that with how much a company is saving.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

Ue: First off, it's $19 a DAY. Sutherland is the major contractor, but there are other companies doing it on a smaller scale.

I never said that Dell was moving all the jobs over, but trust me... I can tell pretty easily when they're not North American or affecting a North American accent, and most do a poor (at best) imitation, and I've dealt with service techs in the US, Canada, India, Japan and UK, you don't scrub out all the inflections, you need to listen for them.

Now.. for the money issues:
Figure $15.00 per warranty service event from India Call centres, This means that the company must pay out an average of $15.00 each time a call is made for support (this is a composite number figuring tech pay, call center costs, call time costs and service not requiring HW replacement). A typical India Call centre for CPQ/HP handles about 4500 calls per hour that are IN warranty. This would mean that the company loses $1,620,000 daily ($67,500 per hour) operating the call centre fixing problems.

If you figure $8.00 per warranty service event from a North American call centre (again using the same aggregate number of calls hourly), you can more or less cut that number in half.

The thing that you (and a lot of executives as well, don't feel too bad) are missing is that these Service Events are where the company hemorrages money. Before you start generating new revenue, or adding more costs, it's prudent to stem the cash leaks first.

The leg up, that BTW a lot of companies are missing, is that while the hourly outlay of pay and benefits is substantial, the returns are significantly higher in the form of less expensive (and smaller numbers of) service events. Also, bare in mind, the average tech would get $15 TOPS per hour... my $22/hr was due in part to performance bonuses and pay raises.

To be succinct: a lot of companies are outsourcing or contracting out portions of their business to limit costs, and increase performance, but they are doing so at the expense of product/service control.

And the US's economy is changing. I don't think a guy like Alan Greenspan would toss off a remark like that for sh*ts and giggles (if you've seen the guy, I don't think he's had a case of the giggles since Johnson was president). The reason for a lot of the upheaval in the economy is because there are a lot of people that are resistant to change (as is normal), and refuse to work ahead of the curve to prepare.

As for unions: You don't know the use they have until your ass gets fired arbitrairly because there wasn't a Union there to oppose it.

Unions, like a lot of other things (corporate welfare and their take over of the US for instance) have their good points and their bad points. Bad points: they drive up the cost of things marginally and regiment seniority rules, good points: They insure that the people working on the product can actually own the product, they help cut down on nepotism, and bring the cost of health care down (think of what you'd have to pay if you were the only person buying the level of health care a UAW worker gets), AND they help keep people from being unemployed and driving up YOUR tax bills.

If you want to say do things like the Koreans are doing it: keep in mind that the average Korean car assembly-line worker can't afford a Kia Sephia on their salary alone, forget about anything made in Japan. Compare standards of living before you start saying that their companies are superior. The Big Three have a little ways to go in regards to quality, and business practices, but they are actually putting out something that their own people can buy (even without incentives). That says a lot.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
Now.. for the money issues:
Figure $15.00 per warranty service event from India Call centres, This means that the company must pay out an average of $15.00 each time a call is made for support (this is a composite number figuring tech pay, call center costs, call time costs and service not requiring HW replacement). A typical India Call centre for CPQ/HP handles about 4500 calls per hour that are IN warranty. This would mean that the company loses $1,620,000 daily ($67,500 per hour) operating the call centre fixing problems.

I have no clue what a "warranty service event" is. Your math is also off.

Quote:

If you figure $8.00 per warranty service event from a North American call centre (again using the same aggregate number of calls hourly), you can more or less cut that number in half.

This is why your math is off. You neglected to show how much money a company spends by paying $8 per call (which is $36,000 an hour). If you find the difference between 15/hour and 8/hour (which you need to in order to fully show how much they lose by being in India as far as when someone calls for a warranty service event), you'll notice a company only looses $31,500/hour. Ok so now find the difference of how much they GAIN by having lower wages per hour and subtract the $31,500. Not to mention the money their saving on 401k's, pension, vacation, health/dental insurance. Up above I did some math and even on the LOW end for what they save per hour with wages, subtracting $31,500 still keeps them in the black. And now that I know it's $19 a DAY, well the savings per hour would be quite more substantial than what I first stated.

Quote:

The thing that you (and a lot of executives as well, don't feel too bad) are missing is that these Service Events are where the company hemorrages money. Before you start generating new revenue, or adding more costs, it's prudent to stem the cash leaks first.

Trust me GAM: If companies weren't saving billions of dollars by outsourcing, they wouldn't be outsourcing.

Corporate america doesn't HATE the US. That's like saying americans HATE the US because we buy stuff from wal-mart. Bottom line, if you only save a few cents or dollars, you'll support the local economy and buy american made products, if your saving hundreds of dollars, you'll buy foreign products. It's the same for corporations. If they only save a a few million a year by outsourcing they'd keep things in the US and accept the loss knowing that their building their own economy. But if they save billions from outsourcing well..... sucks for america don't it?




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

other countries the cost of living is really low.
The reason why is so low is because people don't pay enough taxes.
They don't pay enough taxes because there don't have enough jobs for everyone
They have no jobs because of corruption and government issues. anyway,
because they don't pay enough taxes, the country looks like crap
because the country looks like crap, the living cost is low.

Wal mart's clothes are made in El Salvador, Honduras, Guatemala.
Wal mart's Toys are made in China
McDonalds Toys are made in china also (Child Labor)

The shirt that I'm wearing, I bought it from Old Navy
but it was made in Pakistan.

My hp Key board that I'm using right now
MADE IN CHINA

hp computer Mouse
MADE IN CHINA

My Cavalier was probably made in Mexico

Yeah... Welcome to the 1970s

Robby: It's not so much the clothing, shoes, and computers (which by the way probably caused this country to go in the sh*t hole in the 70's and 80's). It's now services that are being outsourced which make up a very large number of U.S. jobs. Also, contractors that have built homes in Malibu are in India right now because their country is becoming extremely wealthy compared to their normal standard of living.

Here is my vision. Vietnam happened and it picked up our economy. 70's-80's rolled around and no1 had a job because the war was over and everything started to become outsourced. Things were pretty bad until the birth of the internet.

We're in a war with "Terrorism" and our economy is somewhat stable because people have jobs making stuff for the war effort. Currently, many service and consultant jobs are being outsourced along with the same jobs with the internet and computers that saved our asses in the 90's. Once this war is over we will go back to no jobs, with all of our previous jobs outsourced. Thus making 2010-2020 terrible times for this country. If we're LUCKY this country will invent something new to increase jobs again. However we are waiting on a miracle to save us when we could instead be building NOW to ease the blow of going back to peaceful times.

The next 2 presidents after bush have a lot of work cut out for them and I won't be surprised if they get blamed for the terrible economy we'll soon be in.




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

uecavboy wrote:

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
Now.. for the money issues:
Figure $15.00 per warranty service event from India Call centres, This means that the company must pay out an average of $15.00 each time a call is made for support (this is a composite number figuring tech pay, call center costs, call time costs and service not requiring HW replacement). A typical India Call centre for CPQ/HP handles about 4500 calls per hour that are IN warranty. This would mean that the company loses $1,620,000 daily ($67,500 per hour) operating the call centre fixing problems.

I have no clue what a "warranty service event" is. Your math is also off.

A warranty service event is when your unit is within its warranty period, and you call in regarding a problem, and includes an average of all the costs required to fix that individual problem. Regardless if it takes 30 hours or 5 minutes to fix a problem, the average cost is $15.

Figure:

$15 per event. x 4500 events per hour (in a call center) x 24 hours=$1,620,000 per day.

Quote:

Quote:

If you figure $8.00 per warranty service event from a North American call centre (again using the same aggregate number of calls hourly), you can more or less cut that number in half.

This is why your math is off. You neglected to show how much money a company spends by paying $8 per call (which is $36,000 an hour). If you find the difference between 15/hour and 8/hour (which you need to in order to fully show how much they lose by being in India as far as when someone calls for a warranty service event), you'll notice a company only looses $31,500/hour. Ok so now find the difference of how much they GAIN by having lower wages per hour and subtract the $31,500. Not to mention the money their saving on 401k's, pension, vacation, health/dental insurance. Up above I did some math and even on the LOW end for what they save per hour with wages, subtracting $31,500 still keeps them in the black. And now that I know it's $19 a DAY, well the savings per hour would be quite more substantial than what I first stated.

Again, the amount includes all the associated costs for the event itself, ie: pay for the workers, communications equipment, and mark up on the labor... The part where Hp was saving money was the fact that the labor was on a cut-rate, the problem is that there were multiple (figure 8-9) calls per problem to Indian Call centers, and usually 1-2 for North American Centres. Erecting new buildings, outlay for power/communications (in some cases water/sewage) infrastructure upgrades... Security by Wackenhut for overseas installations. These add up. Figure that the fact that there is open warehouse/office space in north america, arguably the best communications infrastructure, and decent infrastructure otherwise... it doesn't take a Krescan to figure out the ease of amortisation for facilities alone in North America trumps India.

Compaq employees (at that level) do not get benefits beyond pay and vacation (which was paid out every check) which was required by law, medical is furnished by the contracting company... depending, it's added ontop of the standard per hour bill per worker, or paid out as a seperate rider. Depends... That is something that is saved by a contractee, however, it's been shown that a healthy workforce is a productive workforce. India has got socialised healthcare, but it's not even close to western standards, ergo, a sick employee will make more sick employees.

Quote:

Quote:

The thing that you (and a lot of executives as well, don't feel too bad) are missing is that these Service Events are where the company hemorrages money. Before you start generating new revenue, or adding more costs, it's prudent to stem the cash leaks first.

Trust me GAM: If companies weren't saving billions of dollars by outsourcing, they wouldn't be outsourcing.

They are saving a lot of money, but, they are ALSO getting a TON of taxbreaks exporting work elsewhere. Given that they don't have to deal with employee standards, and have to only protect their assets...

Quote:


Corporate america doesn't HATE the US. That's like saying americans HATE the US because we buy stuff from wal-mart. Bottom line, if you only save a few cents or dollars, you'll support the local economy and buy american made products, if your saving hundreds of dollars, you'll buy foreign products. It's the same for corporations. If they only save a a few million a year by outsourcing they'd keep things in the US and accept the loss knowing that their building their own economy. But if they save billions from outsourcing well..... sucks for america don't it?

IF they're making money off your back and withholding tax dollars, and you LET them, yes, it does suck for you.

Corporate America doesn't HATE anyone... they just don't give a damn about you beyond allieviating you from your money and giving you as little as possible for it. IF you don't demand more for your money, or alternatively, consume less and save the money, you're ultimately screwing yourself out of determining your own money-flow.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Alright GAM, so we've been going back and forth but the more I read the more I think were on the same side and agaisnt outsourcing. Which kinda makes me laugh because I've been reading your every word and replying and now i'm starting to think were on the same team lol.

I read what you said and I think i'm looking at the overall picture and your breaking it down to the company you worked for. I do agree that there are many empty buildings in the US that you could move into and start right up however a large corporations save far to much money to deal with all the stuff that comes with having a business on US soil




"welcome to the most expensive hobby ever..."

Then to solve this problem, tax the @!#$ out of companies that outsource labor outside the U.S.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]Then to solve this problem, tax the @!#$ out of companies that outsource labor outside the U.S.

x3 brazilian


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

(I really suck at explaining/debating things, which is why I usually stay out of this forum, but here's a shot.)

Keeper of the Light wrote:Then to solve this problem, tax the @!#$ out of companies that outsource labor outside the U.S.

Sure, that could lead to the companies pulling out of the foreign countries and returing to the US, but it also causes hostility with those other nations.

The integration of global companies has an underlying pretext that a lot of people here don't seem to be aware of. If you rely on someone for something, chances are you are more likely to work out your problems rather than fight with them (Please leave Bush out of this, I never said he understood the benefits of outsourcing ).

If Hyundai, BMW, VW, Honda, Toyota, etc., all pulled their operations from the US, we would be pissed off at them. In return, many of us would probably boycott a lot, if not all, foreign good from these countries (look how we treated France when they opposed the War... American Fries? gimme a break). Being the stubborn asses that we are, the US would likely pull their operations from these countries, and now we have a lot of hostility in the air between countries. If you think it's scary that we have wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, while ruining our relations with Syria, Iran, N. Korea, etc... just wait until China, Germany, Japan, Korea's, and all of their "friends" are looking at us through their scopes.

If you want a really good idea on how well outsourcing can benefit inter-country relations, take a good look at the European Union.


So as opposed to taxing the @!#$ out of companies that outsource, why not take a proactive stance and provide favorable tax benifits to companies that keep their operations here in the states. After all, it is very likely that the tax loss of these companies is a major factor for them looking for cheaper alternatives in the first place.

uecavboy wrote:Alright GAM, so we've been going back and forth but the more I read the more I think were on the same side and agaisnt outsourcing. Which kinda makes me laugh because I've been reading your every word and replying and now i'm starting to think were on the same team lol.

We are.

I sometimes come off as being argumentative (I know it... mea culpa), but I loathe being misunderstood. My apologies.

What I was trying to get at, is that the foreign outsourcing bender that companies are currently on is a false-savings.

Quote:


I read what you said and I think i'm looking at the overall picture and your breaking it down to the company you worked for. I do agree that there are many empty buildings in the US that you could move into and start right up however a large corporations save far to much money to deal with all the stuff that comes with having a business on US soil

True to a point, I'll give you that.

However, the problems arise when Americans cannot afford to buy those products or their accompanying services. I use HP/Compaq as my example because I've seen their numbers and the services that have been rendered (I'm still a Compaq/Digital Certified technician). The difference between a competant NA/Indian tech is polar IMHO.... North American Techs are usually easier to deal with, and if I tell them I need a FRU, they'll send it, and if I screwed up, they're not going to say "I told you so," whereas I've had... far less pleasant exchanges with Indian Techs, on the whole.

I'd rather not deal with their service providers, which is why I kept all my CPQ pbx information so I can route my own calls.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

gotta love the chinese free trade agreement or whatever.



@!#$ cheap labor pisses me off.


-Borsty