Does lack of experience make someone less of a car modifier or a car knowledgable person?
I think not. People forget thuat you have to learn how to do something or learn anything about cars, it's not something you're born with. There are many different methods of learning....you could crack open a book, you could use a source like the JBO, ask someone who you know or even go to school to learn about it. Either way, you have to learn one way or another.
With that said, why is it that people are so quick to disclaim someone who doesn't have hands on experience but knows the correct answer to a question? Sure, having hands on experience does give you an advantage in some situations but it doesn't mean that someone who hasn't physically changed a part doesn't know anything. It doesn't take much of a rocket scientist to tell people what years model has what motor or where to buy a part.
I've found personally that people try to use that against me. What I don't understand is that there are TONS of people on here who know something that they haven't done personally. People come on here to ask questions and they learn and all of sudden they repeat an answer and then they are being challenged. That's like if a teacher tells me about Mid-evil times and some kid in the class says "How do you know, were you there?"
Now, I can fully understand if the person with no experience was given the wrong answer from who they thought was a reliable source and someone challenges their answer. I just find it hypocritical for someone to complain that people give answers without doing it themselves when you are providing answers to people who haven't done it...don't complain if you're going to contribute. Is it so hard to believe that someone knows everything about engines but hasn't opened up a motor? No.
I feel that we are all here to learn. No one is perfect and no one knows everything about everything (even though some of us like to think we do). If someone repeats something that is incorrect, correct them, don't challenge them.
Now I have a quesiton for you guys, if a person with no experience can have a 300 whp vehicle built by someone else with their own ideas and suggestions, does that make them any less of a car modifier?
Hopefully this thread makes sense, I kind of wrote it fast but hopefully you guys get the point.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
And no, this thread isn't about one or more specific people. I was just curious.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
Well by its basic meaning if you have no experence you can't be knowlegable. Haveing even basic stuff such as reading something in a book would would give you a basic understanding of something. But I would caution anyone strongly about giveing anyone any kind of advice in a tecnical sence unless you know pretty damn sure what your talking about.
Adam I don't know whats going on but you sure do seem to be getting a bunch of hate lately and I must say I'm sorry to see it. I don't know all the details as to whats going on and what happened but hopefully it will clear up.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Just thought of an old saying that seems fitting for this posting.
Knowledge is gained through reading the instructions. Experence is gained through doing it.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Quote:
Now I have a quesiton for you guys, if a person with no experience can have a 300 whp vehicle built by someone else with their own ideas and suggestions, does that make them any less of a car modifier?
Yes, cause they dont modify @!#$. They have it done.
Look I dont have it out for anybody and if someone asks me a question no matter how stupid I'll answer to the best of my knowledge. No matter what, but If they're gonna run to the great ole JBO each time they run into trouble then they really werent meant for modifying.
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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
Jackalope wrote:Well by its basic meaning if you have no experence you can't be knowlegable. Haveing even basic stuff such as reading something in a book would would give you a basic understanding of something. But I would caution anyone strongly about giveing anyone any kind of advice in a tecnical sence unless you know pretty damn sure what your talking about.
Adam I don't know whats going on but you sure do seem to be getting a bunch of hate lately and I must say I'm sorry to see it. I don't know all the details as to whats going on and what happened but hopefully it will clear up.
Ok, I understand that. See, I always see the fine line of what you can say and what you can't say. For example: I could always tell someone about a certain camshaft but I would never tell someone step by step how to install it because I have never done so.
By the way, your quote is on point.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
Knowledge and Experience are two things that people like to mess together, not keep seperate. Knowledge is something you learn from a book, or ask questions about. Experience is something that takes years to learn but it does not always lead you to the correct answers. If someone who is not Mechanically inclined but sat and took the time to research and design a setup (regardless of what kind), I think deserves props. Anyone can say I want this, this and this and hope they work. But to correctly modify a motor (for example) and do it right the first time around is not an easy task for most. I have grown up around cars my whole life and have both a ton of experience and knowledge from schooling but I still dont claim to know everything and thats where knowledge and experience split. Having the thirst to learn more and more about each motor is what can gain you knowledge. Having the experience to modify an LS1 does not give you the knowledge of working on an Ecotec. All the BS that Adam have been catching is just flat out wrong. The man has done his research and trys to give back to others what he has learned. Is that wrong of him??????? WTF is wrong with some people. The internet tough guy flame wars have got to go. People need to get over themselves. If I have experienced one thing and some one another, then share the info. Dont flame the other person. GROW UP. Some of the people on another forum wonder why I stopped answering so many questions, its cause some momo desides he likes what he did better and another way is not allowed. Why do I not answer turbo questions???? Because I personally am not a fan of them and have not done the research I have done on say an ATi Procharger. Some mods are not ment to be done by a guy whom can install an Intake, a turbo upgrade is one of them. This is why in soem posts I will say "It is my experience..." Which just means this is what I have seen before.
Adam- you are a good man and I have a ton of respect for what you are trying to do and how you honestly like to try and help people.
2002 Z28: Slp coldair Pac, Corsa Catback, 3200 stall
NJHK (The Turbo Negro) wrote:
Now I have a quesiton for you guys, if a person with no experience can have a 300 whp vehicle built by someone else with their own ideas and suggestions, does that make them any less of a car modifier?
The answer is yes, it does make them less of a car modifier. They are nothing more than a purchaser of modified parts, who as a bonus has an understanding of what's going on. Does NOT mean they could of done it themselves.
I'll be the first to admit I'm one of these people. I could order all the right parts, but I'd hand off the tough installs to a mechanic. Especially engine work. Therefore I don't consider myself on the level of real tuners.
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Knowledge and experience are both important but in different ways. It really depends on the person, some know more and some have done more. Neither is superior to the other, it really depends on the person. If you think that you can help somebody on jbo then tell them what you think and they can make their own decision.
You can't outrun the radio.
If i buy a stock cavy and run over to a shop and tell the guy i want it to go faster!! he then adds nos that doesn't make me any better the word "custom" doesn't lie in your wallet are daddy's for that matter spend 20 bucks buy a haynes manual read it when a repair is needed .the first time i repaired anything was a heater core on a trans am with a/c 200 nuts screws and bolts! with some left over lol...The whole game is to do it yourself and learn and have that feeling that you did it each time someone says : Hey man nice car! I'm very proud of my piece of crap. <oxymoron i know Most peep buy racing seats thats fine i go one step more i sew my own seats my with my own pattern the cars name was sewed in at a shop cause i don't own a sewing machine that will do that .. In short yeah somethings you can do without a shop are another person helping. But try and do it mostly yourself thats how you build knowledge as for people give you a hard time it's going to happen no matter what everyone does different ways of expressionism. Welcome to the real world
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4235/jim25ek.jpg
i personally could give a crap wether someone installed the supercharger themselves or had someone else install it.
i dont care, it doesnt matter, and it shouldnt matter to anyone else.
if somebody has the right answer to a question that it makes ZERO difference if that person could hands on SHOW u the right answer. if the person knows it they know it period.
lets say
i know a bunch about astronomy. tons. and i understand how everythign works through the solutions of others: galileo newton etc...
it does not make me any less of an astronomer just because i did not do the complex math/science it took to come to the conclusions galileo and newton have come up with. i know the material and fully understand the concepts and THAT is what matters PERIOD.
i know exactly the parts that make up a traditional pencil. i know how they interact with eachother i know how it has to be to be fully functional. but i cant make a pencil myself. but that does not make me know anyless about the pencil.
and if ur concerned with how or why people know what they know then i say u gotta re-evaluate yourself.
:::
Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
when I bought my Cav and starting researching performance parts online, I ran into the AZJBO guys. Specifically, Eric (97cavie24ls). I try to help him out on mod days as much as I can, and if I do go over to his house to mod my car, I ask him to just stand there and watch, and let me do the work. Eric is a freakin' walking, talking library of car knowledge. (And no, I'm not kissing his ass. I don't need to.) that way, I get to know my car, and if something breaks, I can fix it. I'm not dependant on other people, and it helps to keep my car out of a shop. more money for mods that way.
as far as knowledge and experience... the job that I'm at now, we have several people that are fresh out of school with an associates degree. I, on the other hand, have 10 years experience, but no degree. I get paid more. yes, I'd like to have a degree, since a lot of companies look at that, but I savor my experience more than a piece of paper. experience is an awesome thing, but you have to make sure that the experience you receive from working on things, is the RIGHT experience. I've seen a lot of instances where someone has the wrong experiences on working on things, and it gets ugly.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
Would you want to be operated on by a doctor who's read every textbook
known to man but never cut open a body, or a doctor who's done the
procedure 100 times but isn't quite as read up on the topic? Knowing theory
is first step, but with out some "been there done that" - it's only worth so
much, and advice from an all theory person has to be taken with a grain of
salt. It might be right, but they can't back it up the same, and they won't
have the same foundation to know if they are right or wrong.
duaLife told me all that.
RatZero [Ratte null wrote:]Would you want to be operated on by a doctor who's read every textbook
known to man but never cut open a body, or a doctor who's done the
procedure 100 times but isn't quite as read up on the topic? Knowing theory
is first step, but with out some "been there done that" - it's only worth so
much, and advice from an all theory person has to be taken with a grain of
salt. It might be right, but they can't back it up the same, and they won't
have the same foundation to know if they are right or wrong.
duaLife told me all that.
but when giving advice and answers over the internet people are not asking for your manual labour services.
so in order to have that example relavent it would need to be like this
if you wanted to consult a doctor over a health problem you are having.
which doctor KNOWS more.
A. extensive knowledge on the subject your seeking.
B. has had extensive hands on experience with the subject your seeking.
they both know MORE than enough to give you a MORE than adequate answer to your problem, regardless of wether you would prefer a doctor who has had hands on or one has has lots of book reads. they could both answer you equally as well.
:::
Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
NJHK (The Turbo Negro) wrote:Does lack of experience make someone less of a car modifier or a car knowledgable person?
I feel that its the desire to modify or tune a car that makes you a tuner, there was a time when I knew nothing of car modification.....so i grabbed a haynes manual, and my toolset and started to do all the work on my car and mods, all myself, and now I know a good bit on cars. why do I know what i know now, its not just because I had a book and a toolset, but I had the DESIRE to learn, which to me, is what makes you a tuner. to me the guy who pays to have parts put on a car is no less of a tuner than guys like me who do everything themselves, just so long as they know why the mechanic is remoiving that bolt, and why the new parts work. now the guy who goes into the car shop, slaps his credit card down and says "make it faster" is not a tuner, he's just a guy with too much money, because he has no drive to learn about cars.
I dunno, mabey I'm wrong, mabey I'm way off target, but thats how I see it
You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan
(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)
I will say this:
Those that have experience doing, often do not know why and come up with very erroneus statements to try and justify something. See Also: The myth of cars needing backpressure.
Those that only know the "Book knowledge" often don't understand how real-world variables can skew and alter a given situation. A prime example of this is the design of the placement of the 2200's oil filter, and attempting to reach it from under the car.
In order to be a successfull modder, you have to have a bit of both. You need both the theory and the practice. If you're good at the theory, you can innovate, but not necessarily put into practice. If you're good at practice, you can install about anything on a car, but they will all be things that have been done before, and in terms of performance, that means you're following someone, rather than leading the pack.
my $.02
Goodbye Callisto & Skađi, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
You guys are giving better responses than I thought were going to be said lol
I think "modifier" was the wrong word to use...maybe enthusiest would have been a better word. Modifier implies that you are changing something yourself which if you don't have hands on experience than you aren't doing...so lets change the word to enthusiest.
I also agree that someone who just gos to a car shop and says "Make it look pretty and make it go fast" has no idea what they are getting into and has no desire (like said before) learn.
www.kronosperformance.com / 732-742-8837
i think your guys are on the money ...first there's desire then theres the problem at hand followed by research Reading, Asking, Watching etc then the hands on and finally experience
Even pre-meds work on bodies in school ..the first cut and the patient doesn't mind.
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4235/jim25ek.jpg
I wasn't going to say anything originally but I feel like adding my two cents.
There is another situation that carries people through how they modify their cars. And Adam and I are very good friends who both tune our cars but have the different approaches.
Adam most of the time has to go find shops, people, tools, what ever you want to call it. He didn't grow up with a father that got him into cars. He doesn't live in an area that allows him to freely work on his car. Where as I had the advantage of having a father who built cars in the past, has a garage to work on them, and my neighbords don't complaign. Even though lately I have passed on some jobs to professionals it is just because time just doesn't exist anymore between school and work.
Personally I give him credit for all he has done because he has taken his time to research what he needs. I know some people say there where times that he did things "wrong" but that is his experience coming in play now. We have all been in a position where something we did, did not carry the effect we where looking for. But he took it a step farther, he looked into what he had and learned how to make it work for him. He realized in the beginning that boost was the way to go, he did the things that would help later down the road and now they are all starting to fall into place.
My opinion Adam, I'm not sure what title should be applied wether it is tuner or modifier. Personally you do qualify as an automotive enthusiest because you take the time to research and you enjoy what you get. Don't let the people bother you because there will always be players and haters in any game. You just have to suck it up and be the bigger man in the end, that's what matters.
Defined Parts
I think there needs to be a balance really... and some things depend on the situation.
However... I REALLY REALLY REALLY hate it when people do this...
- someone asks a question. Guy replies saying "this is how you do it... blah blah blah... I heard this from my friend's brother's aunt's uncle's grandma's uncle's neighbor..."
I don't know a lot about motor stuff... but I'm trying to learn what I can. But I can't tell you HOW MANY times I see in the exterior forum someone giving horrible advice to someone asking a question... and the answers are WAAYYYYY off. Sure, the thought is nice that you're trying to help someone... but if you don't personally have any experience with the question that is being asked...
DON'T FREAKING SAY ANYTHING!!! Leave the answers to someone who DOES know what they're talking about.
Example: Someone posted that they had ONE bubble on their car. Bubbles in paint are normally caused by one of two things... a) rust b) moisture.... trapped under the paint. People were saying "just poke a hole in it to deflate the bubble and put clear nail polish over it and it'll be fine"......... WTF??? like 10 people said that!!!! That's the DUMBEST and most wrong "correction" I've heard!!! OMG... I explained politely at first, what was the probable cause, and what had to be done to correct it (Basically strip the whole panel down and repaint... depending on what was underneath). And one of those people argued with me over that!!! "Nah man (I'm a chick) all that needs to be done is to poke a hole in it and .... blah blah blah". If I gently correct someone, and they argue with me... and they've had no experience in the auto body/paint field... I'm gonna get snappy because I was trained to know what I was talking about... and they're arguing with me.
ANyways... depending on what it is... sometimes, as long as someone just has the right answer... it shouldn't matter.... unless they're looking for steps on how to check something, or how to install something.... than it would come in handy for people to actually KNOW HOW to do the installation personally... and not just read it from a book.
You can have oodles of theoretical knowledge, but if you haven't applied it, you can't contextualise what you've learned about. On the flip side, you can have all the experience in a certain area you want, and you're still limited, because you're only working with part of the spectrum, with the rest, you have no familiarity with.
Both have their advantages, and both have disadvantages.
It's the difference between being book-smart and hands-on able.
Ideally, you want a goodly bit of both.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
it does not make me any less of an astronomer just because i did not do the complex math/science it took to come to the conclusions galileo and newton have come up with. i know the material and fully understand the concepts and THAT is what matters PERIOD.
That's just not true.
Real world variables come into play all the time. This time of example happens all the time..
Someone has read and done their homework on installing a supercharger. They get it on, but they have a check engine light on. They have no idea why. They're on the forums, asking for help. eventually have to take it to the dealer.
Understanding the concepts is simply not enough. I see this opinion of mine validated repeatedly by the f-tards that come out of computer training schools. Four certs in their briefcase but the guy is still worthless in doing anything meaningful.
If I were given three choices to person to install my supercharger, and they were
1) Guy who has read on it, knows it inside and out, but has little real tool time of any kind. Like me.
2) A guy like 97Cavie24ls, who knows everything about everything, has tons of tool time, but hasn't installed the supercharger before
3) Or a guy like 97 but has installed the supercharger
I wouldn't be taking #1.
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Hey we all have something that we are good at be it hands on whatever i suck at typing computers office work transferring a call without hanging up on them. hell i just downloaded photo shop and don't have a fkin clue how to use it .. i myself lost my dad to cancer when i was 14 i live in a condo now and can't even add windshield washer fluid without a hard stare from other bo-bo's that live there The only way i myself learned was sweeping up at a body shop when i was 16 .And asking this and that which got me on to prep/paint i still don't know everything there is and its always changing I'll never be a cop or a doctor i don't have desire for it there's noting wrong with that. I answer anyones questions that i can. To as best i can I Try not to judge anyone cause of the question. Yeah some questions make me shake my head but i answer them or just move on. if you have the desire to learn and take the time to read and ask then to me your worthy of answer
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4235/jim25ek.jpg
There are some that can build and some that can design. The designers are unlikely to be good at the actual implementation because of real world factors that the builder has dealth with before. On the flip side the builder would likely be lost if asked to design from scratch.
Like GAM said, you'd want a good bit of both.
You always start with theory and progress to real world. That is how you gain experience. Experience counts.
Lets say you were building a big machine that if it malfuntions will kill someone. Would you rather have a guy with a Phd in Mechanical engineering build it or a guy who has built 50 of them before?
PAX
