so, in my state (MI) a group of minorities is protesting because they feel they were tricked into petitioning or signing a petition for the upcoming ban on affirmitive action vote because of how the petition was worded.
So basically they are now changing their miond and supporting racism because they didnt realize they would have had possible advantages if affirmitive action stayes in place.
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MCRI IS A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION TO PROHIBIT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND OTHER STATE UNIVERSITIES, THE STATE, AND ALL OTHER STATE ENTITIES FROM DISCRIMINATING OR GRANTING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BASED ON RACE, SEX, COLOR, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN.
MCRI and the People of Michigan submitted almost 65% more than the necessary 317,757 signatures to qualify for consideration at the next election. With 508, 202 signatures submitted (and 505,970 accepted as within the precise format guidelines of the Secretary of State), more individuals than have ever signed an initiative for Constitutional amendment expressed their desire to vote on the issue. With the Secretary of State's certification of 90% of those signatures as from registered voters, or 455,474, as valid registered, the initiative has almost 138,000 valid signatures more than required to qualify, despite the Board of Canvassers' politicized failure to certify the petition. When the Court of Appeals ratifies the People of Michigan's clear statement, we will all have an opportunity to amend our state constitution to finally end all discrimination and preferences by state and local government.
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So because some people say they signed it on accident they want the entirety of the whole petition thrown out!!!, the MOST SUCCESSFUL PETITION IN OUR HISTORY!!! WTF!!
Now dont get me wrong, I respect minorities rights, but if you are going to put a RACIST system in place like affirmitive action at least give it a time limit, or pass some other legislation that will force us to re-examine what we are doing!
Racism, AND reverse racism are BOTH WRONG!
i love affirmative action
it gives a lot of under-priveledged minorities a better opportunity for college
Time to re-up gotta recycle the flow - Young Jeezy
avlnchrs wrote:i love affirmative action
it gives a lot of under-priveledged minorities a better opportunity for college
AWESOME!
Next time you go into the emergency room make sure and ask for the minority that had lower test scores but was accepted anyway becasue the "government made them pick somebody".
"hmmmm... was 10mg or 100mg the lethal dose? oh well..."
yyeeaahh...this will end up in War forum soon enough.
*puts on flame suit*
oh @!#$ hold on to your seat folks here we go....
Let the flame war begin!
Later
David
I need photoshop...cause its time for a new sig
In Mass they had petitions set up outside grocery stores, they told people that it was to allow grocery stores to sell beer and wine, which was true. It's just that they left out the second objective of the petition when asking people to sign them.... banning gay marriage, haha.
I work on Wall Street, but didn't force you to take out a loan you couldn't afford.
ummm.. Nick, isn't reverse racism.. acceptance?
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Nick@USOL.com wrote:avlnchrs wrote:i love affirmative action
it gives a lot of under-priveledged minorities a better opportunity for college
AWESOME!
Next time you go into the emergency room make sure and ask for the minority that had lower test scores but was accepted anyway becasue the "government made them pick somebody".
"hmmmm... was 10mg or 100mg the lethal dose? oh well..."
HA HA HA HA !!!!! Nick you hit the nail on the head there dude ! It needs to go the way of the dinosaur and die. The BEST person for the job whatever color should be the one to get it. not just cause you are todays favorite minority with lower test scores.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Nick@USOL.com wrote:avlnchrs wrote:i love affirmative action
it gives a lot of under-priveledged minorities a better opportunity for college
AWESOME!
Next time you go into the emergency room make sure and ask for the minority that had lower test scores but was accepted anyway becasue the "government made them pick somebody".
"hmmmm... was 10mg or 100mg the lethal dose? oh well..."
When VT does their admissions they have 2 stacks the stack of everyone they sort thru first, then the stack to make up the minority they have to admit after going thru the qualified students.
Affirmative action had its place, but now it causes reverse descrimination.
-Chris
NICK FOR PRESIDENT.
of thw world.
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
JimmyZ wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:ummm.. Nick, isn't reverse racism.. acceptance?
Racism = discriminating against someone because of their race.
Reverse racism = discriminating against someone ELSE because of their race.
Neither is "acceptance", and both are wrong.
Not to belabour the point, Jimmy, You just said the same thing twice with the word ELSE (in capitalised, Verdana letters). Racism is racism. It's sign of a weak mind.
Reverse is the same a Not command in programming, !Racism=Acceptance.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Ugh, you'll @!#$ argue anything, no matter how pointless.
Pathetic.
It's a good thing that this law didn't pass, and I'm really surprised no one here has caught it.
The proposal header stated:
MCRI IS A PROPOSAL TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION TO PROHIBIT THE UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND OTHER STATE UNIVERSITIES, THE STATE, AND ALL OTHER STATE ENTITIES FROM DISCRIMINATING OR GRANTING PREFERENTIAL TREATMENT BASED ON RACE, SEX, COLOR, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONAL ORIGIN.
If this had not been voted in, it's basically stating that you, as a voter, believe that Michigan universities CAN descriminate. If this had failed, a college rejection letter could state "Sorry, you're just too much of a Jewish Princess for Mich U."
Either you believe people should be equal under the law or not.
If you believe people should be treated equally, then losing affirmative action is a step forward. History has taught us that "Separate but equal" isn't equal at all.
If you believe that people should receive preferential treatment because of race, sex or national origin, then all the people who fought for civil rights did so in vain.
Let's take this a step further...
What if Michigan was willing to offer free educations to people who were willing to sign away all of their constitutional rights, regardless of their race/gender/origin? Would you sell your freedoms for an education?
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Pure and simple, everyone should be judged by the same standards. Look at it from this point of view, if your a minority and get in to college or get a job because of your minority status, even if you have lower scores than a non-minority person, then your basically saying that it's okay for someone to call you stupid, like its okay we'll overlook that your dumb/less qualified, because your black, female, etc. Now I know if you explained Affirmative action like this the minorities might be more apt to get rid of it.
I'm also suprised that someone from Canada has an opinion on this, maybe you should get into politics and give your government some balls so they can stand for something more than a doormat for the U.S. Not calling you out, just an observation.
Like alot of people have stated on here, racism is wrong, whether forward, reverse, or inverse, so why argue the point?
feldma8a wrote:Pure and simple, everyone should be judged by the same standards. Look at it from this point of view, if your a minority and get in to college or get a job because of your minority status, even if you have lower scores than a non-minority person, then your basically saying that it's okay for someone to call you stupid, like its okay we'll overlook that your dumb/less qualified, because your black, female, etc. Now I know if you explained Affirmative action like this the minorities might be more apt to get rid of it.
I'm also suprised that someone from Canada has an opinion on this, maybe you should get into politics and give your government some balls so they can stand for something more than a doormat for the U.S. Not calling you out, just an observation.
Like alot of people have stated on here, racism is wrong, whether forward, reverse, or inverse, so why argue the point?
Ironic... In one post you claim racism is wrong yet descriminate against someone for their national origin.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
Like I said, it was an observation, not descrimination like you claim. I'm proud of our 51st and all the crap that has been produced from it. I am encouraging him to seriously consider politics as a vocation, he really seems to have a opinion about everything I'm sure there is someone out there that agrees with him.
Problem is, everyone is not going to be judged by the same standards. In most places if it were not for Affirmative Action, the "Good Ol' Boy" System would definitely be much more of a standard than actually hiring based on qualifications.
I was hired as a plant operator not long ago. Before I worked for the plant, I was contracted out to it performing Investigations. (various things) Worked here for about 1.5 years doing that. I was denied twice when I applied for the open positions that came up because I did not have the operators course completed yet. But, this 18 year old HS graduate, who has a uncle in law out here got hired on because of that fact alone.
There is a need for affirmative action. Some of it needs to be revamped, but it is still needed. It's very easy to look from your side of the fence at what you THINK is going on and make an assumption of what should be done to correct it. That's just like a manager, who sits behind the desk all day, telling the field worker how to to do a job that they never have done based on what they THINK they see.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Chamillionaire wrote:Problem is, everyone is not going to be judged by the same standards. In most places if it were not for Affirmative Action, the "Good Ol' Boy" System would definitely be much more of a standard than actually hiring based on qualifications.
I was hired as a plant operator not long ago. Before I worked for the plant, I was contracted out to it performing Investigations. (various things) Worked here for about 1.5 years doing that. I was denied twice when I applied for the open positions that came up because I did not have the operators course completed yet. But, this 18 year old HS graduate, who has a uncle in law out here got hired on because of that fact alone.
So you weren't hired because you hadn't completed the required education, and you're not happy that someone unqualified with a relative who worked there got hired.
Sounds more like nepotism than racism.
Chamillionaire wrote:There is a need for affirmative action. Some of it needs to be revamped, but it is still needed. It's very easy to look from your side of the fence at what you THINK is going on and make an assumption of what should be done to correct it.
In my previous job, I was 2nd shift production manager. I had 5 group leaders and about 75 production workers under me. I was in charge of everything that happened on my shift, including hiring and firing. The only color I cared about was green, as in how much production bonus a potential empoyee could get me.
There was a time when affirmative action was necessary, but that time has passed.
From my other post:
What if Michigan was willing to offer free educations to people who were willing to sign away all of their constitutional rights, regardless of their race/gender/origin? Would you sell your freedoms for an education?
.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
I guess I should be more explanatory. The boy was hired by having a relative employed here. I was not hired because I had not completed the course, along with the other 6 Blacks that have been hired on here since the plant was opened. ALL of them were required to complete the course before being considered. Most of the White employees, with the exception of those that chose to pursue the degree before even appying anywhere have been hired without the required course. I find it funny that they require that ALL the blacks have the course and the whties have a relative.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Chamillionaire wrote:I guess I should be more explanatory. The boy was hired by having a relative employed here.
That's "nepotism", not racism.
Chamillionaire wrote:I was not hired because I had not completed the course, along with the other 6 Blacks that have been hired on here since the plant was opened. ALL of them were required to complete the course before being considered. Most of the White employees, with the exception of those that chose to pursue the degree before even appying anywhere have been hired without the required course. I find it funny that they require that ALL the blacks have the course and the whties have a relative.
In the hiring order, you were placed under people who had the required degree, or completed the training course, or had a relative that worked there.
Sounds like every job I've ever applied for.
Charmillionaire, the anger you're expressing is the exact same irrational thougts that others have stated when a minority gets the job they were going for.
You believe that another employment candidate was given preferential treatment because he's less qualified, but has a relative that works there. You may be the better man for the job, but an unwritten policy of hiring relatives got you passed over for the job the first time around. Affirmative Action is the same thing, but it's documented with guidlines.
Regardless of your qualifications, and your completing the training course, would you like to believe that you were hired because you can do the job, or because the company has to have a quota and you're a statistic?
As long as there's Affirmative Action, you'll never know the real reason you were hired. That should bother you much more than having to take a course or getting passed over by someone's nephew.
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
^^^^
And you think that becuase their family they dont have to do any work right?
That couldn't be farther from the truth. I work for my dad and all his other employees get 15 min breaks every 2 hours....I work a full 5 hours without breaks becuase he doesn't want me wasting his money and getting lazy on the job. Granted I get a little more freedom than the other employees but anyone who's worked for family knows that you treat your family much worse than other employees, purely becuase their family. Maybe the corpoate world is different...I dunno
Affirmative action is just accepted racisim IMO...any discrimination based on skin color is wrong...any descriminiation is wrong...no matter who you are.
John Wilken wrote:That's "nepotism", not racism.
If every Black was required to have the course and the Whites were not in order to get hired...and they had relatives out here, that's BOTH Nepotism AND Racism. How can you not see through that?
John Wilken wrote:In the hiring order, you were placed under people who had the required degree, or completed the training course, or had a relative that worked there.
Nope, wrong again.
John Wilken wrote:Charmillionaire, the anger you're expressing is the exact same irrational thougts that others have stated when a minority gets the job they were going for.
I'm being irrational because I can plainly see that there was a problem here? You, if the blinders were taken off, could see plainly that there is a problem here. They will NOT accept a minority without the proper schooling, but they will accept a White based on someones blood line that only knows about the stink that plants emit when they pass them up on the highway.
John Wilken wrote:Affirmative Action is the same thing, but it's documented with guidlines.
You'd like to think that its the same thing, that way you could justify what you don't want to believe is true. Affirmative action is there for places like this. Now don't get me wrong, the company is great to work for as a whole, but there is a lot of shady @!#$ going on around here.
If it were not for Affirmative Action, there would more than likely be no Blacks employed out here. I'll repeat again, most of the White workers here have gotten in on the system, not based on education, experience, or anything of the sort. It was all based on the White relative they had working here. I can assure you that if it had not been for AA, you wouldn't see a Black face anywhere near LaPorte Industrial Complexes.
You apparently don't know much history about this area, but integration happened in the refineries and chemical plants just as it did in schools. I'm sure that applies to MANY other places and career fields as well.
John Wilken wrote:Regardless of your qualifications, and your completing the training course, would you like to believe that you were hired because you can do the job, or because the company has to have a quota and you're a statistic?
As long as there's Affirmative Action, you'll never know the real reason you were hired. That should bother you much more than having to take a course or getting passed over by someone's nephew.
Without Affirmative Action, more than likely I wouldn't have the slightest chance. That's what bothers me most. Knowing that a system like that is still needed in what is supposedly a free country.
Again, you'll never know my pain. You'll never understand where I come from or speak about when it comes to being Black in America. I'm not the one to pull the "Race Card" just because I feel treated unfairly. I don't fit into the stereotypical version of what America has presented as a Black Man. But when there is injustice, I will speak about it. You can sit here all day, until you're blue in the face, and speak on what you feel to be a system that is no longer needed because America isn't the same as it was back in 1950. I say Bull@!#$!! America has placed laws in effect that cause people who would normally do and say as they pleased to restrain themselves. Now granted, the generation that I come from are much farther from my parents and grandparents from the racist mentality, but most of our parents and grandparents are still in the White House, they are still in Congress, they are still Senators, and they are still Law Makers, and that are still Judges, and they are still Law Enforcement Officers, and they are still stuck in the same rut they have been for 50 years.
Ignorance of Racism is the biggest problem of all. Most of you don't know the difference between Racism and Clever Racism. Might wanna Google that....
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Chamillionaire wrote:John Wilken wrote:That's "nepotism", not racism.
If every Black was required to have the course and the Whites were not in order to get hired...and they had relatives out here, that's BOTH Nepotism AND Racism. How can you not see through that?
Because it's happened to me the same way, except I'm white. I've been passed over promotions too due to someone's relative in a key position pushing their cousin to the front. I've also worked for a tech temp agency, and had to wait until the department head had hired her brother before I could get on the payroll.
Chamillionaire wrote:John Wilken wrote:Charmillionaire, the anger you're expressing is the exact same irrational thougts that others have stated when a minority gets the job they were going for.
I'm being irrational because I can plainly see that there was a problem here? You, if the blinders were taken off, could see plainly that there is a problem here. They will NOT accept a minority without the proper schooling, but they will accept a White based on someones blood line that only knows about the stink that plants emit when they pass them up on the highway.
Same as above answer. Nepotism.
Chamillionaire wrote:John Wilken wrote:Regardless of your qualifications, and your completing the training course, would you like to believe that you were hired because you can do the job, or because the company has to have a quota and you're a statistic?
As long as there's Affirmative Action, you'll never know the real reason you were hired. That should bother you much more than having to take a course or getting passed over by someone's nephew.
Without Affirmative Action, more than likely I wouldn't have the slightest chance. That's what bothers me most. Knowing that a system like that is still needed in what is supposedly a free country.
You've made a bad career decision. If you really believe that the only reason you were hired is to satisfy a minimum minority requirement, what makes you think you'll ever have an opportunity for promotion?
Chamillionaire wrote:Again, you'll never know my pain. You'll never understand where I come from or speak about when it comes to being Black in America.
You don't know that. You don't know where I live, who my friends are, or who I'm married to. You're way off base with this.
Chamillionaire wrote:I'm not the one to pull the "Race Card"..... and that are still Judges, and they are still Law Enforcement Officers, and they are still stuck in the same rut they have been for 50 years.
Ignorance of Racism is the biggest problem of all. Most of you don't know the difference between Racism and Clever Racism. Might wanna Google that....
I never said that racism didn't exist. I never said that there aren't racist cops, judges and lawmakers. But, as your previous post stated, you have it better than previous generations.
Why cling on to the last remnant of "separate but equal" laws? Why perpetuate the myth that minorities are inferior and need help? Think of those who protested for equality during the 60's. They were openly treated unfairly, beaten and tear gassed for equality under the law. Are you willing to set aside their accomplishments, and be labeled "a qouta"? By supporting Affirmitave Action, you're chipping away at equality.
I'll ask you my question from above:
What if Michigan was willing to offer free educations to people who were willing to sign away all of their constitutional rights, regardless of their race/gender/origin? Would you sell your freedoms for an education?
John Wilken
2002 Cavalier
2.2 Vin code 4
Auto
I'm sorry Chamillionaire, but I think your not telling us everything. You say every black person there needs special training to get promoted, but the white employee's don't, that is a clear case of rasism and if it were even partly true you or someone else would have hired a lawyer and sued them by now. I think your upset you don't have the skills required, and you think you are a better choise than the people they hire. Mabye you are, or mabye they know more than you think. (I work for my parents, I've been doing this sense I was about 10, first helping at another store my mom worked at, then doing it for them. By the time I was 14 I had construction skills, inventory management skills, computer skills, sales skills, and auto mechanic skills. I was not a master of all skills, but I had 1 to 2+ years expierence in these skills)
I think you should really ask yourself a few questions:
Do you know for a fact they hired white emloyees who did not have the required job skills, class/degree?
Do all the black emplyee's at the job level have the required skill, class/degree?
Are they happy with your work habits?(don't judge yourself, ask your boss or even other employees)
Did they hire any whites that were not related to a current employee and did not have the required job skills, class/degree?
If you can honestly say yes to those few questions, then sue their asses cause you are right , that would be racism. It would also be a clear cut case as you said there are at least 6 black employee's and several if not all the white employee's were hired without the right skills.
