Alright, it should be no secret now that the supreme court Owned ashcroft and held up Oregon's Death with Dignity act--and gave the powers to the states on this. Having dealt with the issue when it was coming out, I can say this--they do have a system of checks and balances set up so that not just anyone can get a doctor to give them a lethal prescription (Specifically, you must be able to make that descsion with a reasonably sound mind, and you must have, according to your doctor, less than 6 months to live). More states are now considering adopting such policies.

Of course there are "moral" issues with this--what's everyone's take on it?






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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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I think they should be able to do it. the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what we can/can't do with our bodies. if I'm terminal, and there's absolutely no way that I can enjoy my last 6 months on earth, you're damned right I'm looking for a doctor to help me out and put me out of my misery.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

Z24 FReQ (Jarett) wrote:I think they should be able to do it. the government shouldn't be allowed to tell us what we can/can't do with our bodies. if I'm terminal, and there's absolutely no way that I can enjoy my last 6 months on earth, you're damned right I'm looking for a doctor to help me out and put me out of my misery.

took the words out of my mouth

We can put a suffering dog to sleep so why not a suffering human ? Are we less important then dogs ? Or more important ? My father laid in a hospice bed dieing of cancer for over a year on a steady morphine drip with panic button for when the pain got to be unbearable. And all we could do is stand there and watch him suffer and die. If he could have gotten one of his guns I'm sure what he would have done. When a loved one is in so much pain and their is no way to save their life, all they could do is knock them out so they can't feel the pain how is that living ? IMO we should be able to decide if we want to die with dignity rather then wither away in agonizing pain.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Dying with dignity is one thing, and I'm all for it, but assisted suicide is something that isn't as easily dealt with. I think that pain management is a viable option, but in truly terminal cases, I think an adult should be allowed to do with their lives what they wish.

Also, I think that a Doctor's Hypocratic oath prevents them from assisting in a patient's suicide.

Personally, if my pain can be managed, I'm not in any rush to have my life over with. You can get as much out of knowing you have a finite time on earth as you can without knowing your date with fate. I've seen good and bad with that kind of thing, and my thoughts are mixed.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Gam, I know you have personal experence with this too but let me ask you. If your loved one would say to you that they don't want to suffer anymore wouldn't the best most human thing be to let them go ? I know its hard and it would be the worst thing you ever had to agree too but if they are either in great pain or knocked out then what kind of life is that ? It'd be the closest thing I could think of when someone would try to describe hell. Trapped in your own body in constant pain and suffering ? No thanks if its me puul the plug.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

and nothing against you Gam, but I am definitely against "bandaid" fixes to keep me around longer. if I'm certain to die, and I can't function without constant pain and enjoy my last few months or weeks on this planet because I'm too dosed up, pull the plug. my personal opinions though, and I know everyone sees differently on this subject.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

I think it should be choice, yes. the choice of the person who's suffering, in a "living will" or not.

But, if the option is there and i feel the need to not suffer anymore, and be free from morphine highs, i have the right to take that. Granted, my choice would be to be airdropped into some DMZ (iraq, afghanistan, serbia, compton, harlem), with an appropriate hateful shirt, with my sword in my hand...


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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If a person is suffering that much, in that much pain they can't bear to "live" anymore... they should have that choice to decide whether or not they want to live the rest of their life suffering and only getting worse, or to go before they have to be in that much pain and suffering.

Humans are animals. We're no better than dogs, cats, birds, whathaveyou. We may think we are, but in reality we're not... we're just animals.

Most people decide to "put down" their pets because their pets get to a point where they are suffering needlessly, or there is no hope to save them and let them live out the rest of their life without constant pain or suffering. Why don't we have that same right?

Who here would seriously want to live out their last days in agonizing pain and suffer every day for the remainder of their short terminal life? I sure as heck wouldn't. If no amount of medications or anything was easing my suffering, and I only got worse day after day... I'd want someone to let me die with dignity... and not have my loved ones watch me suffer till the end of my days.

The Oregon law is written in a way that I can't disagree with. There are lots of potential for abuses, but it appears to have addressed most if not all of them.


---

*shrug* I'm for euthanizing healthy people if that's what they want, how could I possibly disagree with this?

...okay, well, how about this, GAM, which is how some "doctors" do it.

They rig up a syetem where the person suffereing injects themselevs with the letal medication.

That way, all the doctor would do is provide the means for the person to do it themselves. They don't have a hand in it except to provide the means when the person suffereing cannot.

Because really, if, say, i really wanted to kill myself (and fro those that wish i would, sorry, I enjoy staying alife if for no other reason than to piss the people off that wish i was dead), i would find a way to do it--just like if i wanted to steal a certain car. No amount of laws, bureaucracy, or bull@!#$ will stop that.

I just think that you must make the sstem as idiot-proof as possible and make it so that the person suffering is the one that "flips the switch" and you're pretty much in the clear.


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]...okay, well, how about this, GAM, which is how some "doctors" do it.

They rig up a syetem where the person suffereing injects themselevs with the letal medication.

That way, all the doctor would do is provide the means for the person to do it themselves. They don't have a hand in it except to provide the means when the person suffereing cannot.

What you're describing is the Dr Kervorkian machine. There are a few drugs that are given after the patient pushes a button. The first few are commonly given before surgery, an anesthetic, an immobilizer and a pain blocker. Then after a timer runs out (to make sure all the drugs are in full effect) the lethal drug is dispensed.

I'm for letting terminal patients in constant pain being allowed to end their suffering, but I don't think it should be as easy as ordering a pizza. My Dad suffered a massive head injury in 93 and has lived in constant pain combined with symptoms similar to alzheimers. I hope that he will continue wanting to live, but if the day came that he could no longer bear his burden I want him to have the option to have medical assistance for his final hour. I couldn't push the button for him, but I will be there to hold his hand.




John Wilken
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Auto

Even so...for most *normal* people to commit suicide, it is as easy as ordering a pizza--so why not keep things even-handed?


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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I read an article a few years back that was a real eye-opener. I'm trying to find the link, but I'm not getting my hopes up, just because of it's age.

It was about a study funded by the pharmaceutical lobby concerning assisted suicide and "death with dignity" debates going on all across the country at the time. They determined that if assisted suicide became legal in all 50 states, that their industry would lose something on the order of $100M a year in painkiller sales. Naturally, they do whatever they can to block such legislation now.

I'll let you know if I find the link...






09:f9:11:02:9d:74:e3:5b:d8:41:56:c5:63

Jackalope wrote:Gam, I know you have personal experence with this too but let me ask you. If your loved one would say to you that they don't want to suffer anymore wouldn't the best most human thing be to let them go ? I know its hard and it would be the worst thing you ever had to agree too but if they are either in great pain or knocked out then what kind of life is that ? It'd be the closest thing I could think of when someone would try to describe hell. Trapped in your own body in constant pain and suffering ? No thanks if its me puul the plug.

Maybe I wasn't entirely clear, but the way I see it is that if you can't manage your pain with pain boluses, then I believe that a person should be allowed to make a decision as to whether or not they want to continue to live, and their doctor should abide by that. Now, what I said was that I belive that a doctor couldn't assist in a suicide without violating their Hypocratic oath, but I'm not certain... At what point does "Above all, Do No Harm" conflict with keeping a person alive when there isn't any possibility of recovery?

I can't make such a fine distinction, I think that people should be allowed to make that decision for themselves provided they're in their right mind. I figure if each state that has a executioner, they can put that person to good use by getting them to "flick the switch" for patients that have expressed the will to die, but are not physically able to do it themselves.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

I don't think I could ever end my own life or even ask a doctor to do it no matter what my pain, but I do believe this is a individuals choice and should be an option for them. I am curious though, if your terminal and could qualify for this, can you choose to leave the hospital? or do they force a stay at some point?

Please try to find the link, Jimmyz.

I agree that this shouldn't be abused, but i don't think denying someone the right to die so the insurance companies can drain the estate is any reason to veto this.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

that just makes it all harder in the end. insurance companies won't dole out the policy if it is suicide, assisted or not. for a lot of people, that's paying up old bills, paying for the funeral, etc.
so even if assisted suicide is legal in all 50 states, you still have to battle with the insurance companies. bastards. I hate those people.


Desert Tuners

“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”

Why is it always referred to as "Death with dignity"?

What is dignified about suicide? Sounds like cowadece to me.

What is undignified about dying naturally or while in pain? How is that "Undignified"? Uncomfortable, sure. Prolonged, maybe? Tough for your relatives, yes, but not as tough on them as the person doing the dying..

Death with dignity my butt.. More like shortcut to the enevitable to save some pain for you and your family. Is that "dignified"?

Removing artificial support is one thing, commiting suicide (or murder) is something completely different. People may choose, but lets not pretend they are choosing a "dignified" exit. That's a load of bull.

PAX

The same argument could be taken with "pain relief promotion." pumping someone full of morphine doesn't just make them feel no pain, it makes them feel nothing at all! And I can see the point of someone wanting to give up the ghost rather than "live" as a drugged-up rotting shell of their former self.

I won't argue with you about the semantics, i just used the "titles" of the differeing schools of thought as they call themselves.

But The thing about the semantics is the point-ov-view of the person that holds it. To you, taking a shortcut to the inevitable to spare you and your family pain, is not dignified, whereas to someone else, convalescing as your body rots away while it won't give up the ghost is undignified.

Personally, i think there's room in this world for both schools of thought. Since morals and ethings really are a core *personal* belief, and not a societal one, it should all come down to what the person wants. If they want to be kept alive as long as possible, then go for it. If they want to flip their own switch, then go for it, if they want to have someone dress them in a KKK uniform and drop them into South Central L.A., or in major pro-USA gear and airdrop them into a palestinean settlement so they can say they went out in battle, then that's their perogative.

I personally think forcing someone to live is just as bad as forcing someone to die.


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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So why then assisted suicide? If they are being forced to live, just remove support. Then if they should die, they will die. To me that is acceptable were any form of suicide is not.

To each their own, yes. I am expressing my beliefs, I do not expect others to adhere to them.

I will not assist anyone with suicide, and I will not ask for anyone to be guilty of my death either.

PAX

^^^^Which is your choice. What i mean is this: You pretty much have the right to emergency care--even in the states. In essence, if you're goign to die, but want to live, you have that right unless (choose your deity of choice) decided to intervene.

Ditto on the opposite. If you want to die, but can't, and don't want to have to suffer through 6 months of pain and agony as a disease eats you from the inside out, you should have the right to off yourself. And if that means you need someone to help you push your wheelchair off of a cliff, then so be it.

Personally, i think the Kevorkian machine is a good idea. It gives people the means, but they push the button, so to speak. The only assistance there is whoever's hooking you up.

Really, if someone like me wants to kill themselves, they will, no law, moral code, or anything will stop them. Why deny that choise to people that, say, couldn't get the means to do so?


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

You are asking for a "right to die" and While I find it hard to argue on a legal basis, my own beliefs will not allow me to participate.

I think with the right controls and checks in place, maybe people could be hgiven the "right to die". The problem is, people cannot be trusted and someone will find a way to abuse the system. There will be murders listed as suicide, it's almost garenteed. That is my concern for the public. My own issues are just that.

PAX

I agree that it needs to be made as "foolproof" as possible. But, i don't think the practice should be outlawed; I think we need to take it on a case-by-case basis. If there is any doubt that the person is not of sound mind and body and there is no living will, then don't do it.


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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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