ok so, the argument is that life is to complex to NOT have been CREATED by a higher power.
that the complexities of life and matter HAVE to have been CREATED by a higher power.
what i havent read is then the answer to WHERE did god come from?
if the argument u use to debunk evolution was used on ur own beliefs then that would mean that god is to complex to have been formed on its own. that god is so complex that it HAD to have been created by a greater power.
if u say anything other than the fact that if there is a god, there must be a god of our god who created our god and a god of that god etc etc... then your argument against evolution is moot.
also, if there is a god. then why is it not possible that he himself CREATED evolution. he "designed" all life to EVOLVE from 1 origin.
i just get frustrated by this whole damn debate. because it seems so illogical.
evolution exsist. plain and simple.
the debate should be wether or not u beleive god created evolution or not not wether evolution exsist or not.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Created Evolution IS the argument made by the church fathers over 1600 years ago. Both St. Athenasius and later and more elequaintly, St. Thomas Aquinas presented those very arguments.
Regarding "What created God?" It is a very long and complex argument, but I will try to give the shortest answer I can.
"In the begining there was the Word." The universe began with an idea formed into language, in a sense. The point is that the universe has a begining, and an end. God is the Alpha and the Omega (Greek for beginning and end respectively). Time is a component of the universe. Therefore God created time along with the universe. If there is no time, there can be no "before". God is infinate, exists outside of time, and has no "before", and no "after".
The problem is the question itself because it fails to recognise the true God. God does not come from a "where" or a "when" or a "who". God is the creator of all things, the "Prime Mover", the uncreated one, the singularity (the "Godhead", which has three persona) from which all things eminate.
PAX
I do not beleive in intelligent design, no intelligent being would put the human
female vagina that close to the anus, that's horrible design. So it must be evolution.
And WTF - your nose is right over your mouth? That's disgusting. Lousy design.
Testicles - why have them right where they are easily and painfully squished?
Female monthly cycle - haha, I have my doubts that was in the blueprints.
If a supreme being "designed" us, it would be a much better design. God would
do a much better job. The human body would have a stack of recall notices a mile
high if it were a car.
RatZero δ wrote:I do not beleive in intelligent design, no intelligent being would put the human
female vagina that close to the anus, that's horrible design. So it must be evolution.
And WTF - your nose is right over your mouth? That's disgusting. Lousy design.
Testicles - why have them right where they are easily and painfully squished?
Female monthly cycle - haha, I have my doubts that was in the blueprints.
If a supreme being "designed" us, it would be a much better design. God would
do a much better job. The human body would have a stack of recall notices a mile
high if it were a car.
lmfao
HAHAHA-
yeah i understand that. but there cant be a uncreated one. its not possible.
also, most of the articles and stories ive read are people saying that we did not EVOLVE. they are arguing that we spontaneously WERE humans from nothing. and that is just illogical. and that is where my comments are directed.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
VVVV Read the bottom line for my stance on the matter.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I am an evolutionist for the most part, although even I think that God had something to do with the rise of the Universe and life...
I do not believe in design of every species, as in God creating every species and placing it on Earth. I believe evolution drives speciation.
Most of the discrepancies described in every creationists book do not refute evolution. They only show that some higher power had to be involved for some parts of the Earth's history to happen... for example, the Big Bang occurred but how did the Big Bang happen? What made that tiny superdense piece of matter that exploded? It could not have spontaneously formed... also the formation of the first cell is hotly debated to this day... but coulnd't a supernatural entity have planted the right organic molecules or even the first proto-cells?
I am not arguing creation here by any means because I believe that the Universe evolved after the Big Bang without God's hand and life evolved on Earth without God's hand. I do believe God created the laws of nature, evolution, and the Big Bang but he did not meddle in it once it was started...
my only issue with evolution, is the theory that humans evolved from apes. i always thought that evolution occured when the species had to change to be able to adapt to the surroundings. so if the apes werent good enough and we evolved into humans, then why are there still apes? it seems like they would have become extinct.
(i dont know much about evolution, i did @!#$ty in science lol, so if someone could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it)
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SPITfire wrote:I am an evolutionist for the most part, although even I think that God had something to do with the rise of the Universe and life...
I do not believe in design of every species, as in God creating every species and placing it on Earth. I believe evolution drives speciation.
Most of the discrepancies described in every creationists book do not refute evolution. They only show that some higher power had to be involved for some parts of the Earth's history to happen... for example, the Big Bang occurred but how did the Big Bang happen? What made that tiny superdense piece of matter that exploded? It could not have spontaneously formed... also the formation of the first cell is hotly debated to this day... but coulnd't a supernatural entity have planted the right organic molecules or even the first proto-cells?
I am not arguing creation here by any means because I believe that the Universe evolved after the Big Bang without God's hand and life evolved on Earth without God's hand. I do believe God created the laws of nature, evolution, and the Big Bang but he did not meddle in it once it was started...
but if a superdense piece of matter forming from nothing is not possible, then on that same note, a god who started from nowhere, is everything etc... would have to be equally not possible since its the same idea. since BEFORE there was a god there would have been nothing. he would have had to have formed from a spontaneously created piece of matter. and if this is the case, then the idea that the universe began in the same fashion would like wise have to be acepted.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
there are different evolutionary pathes, therefore apes still exist. there were numerous species of apes and many of them evolved down seperate pathes, homo sapiens ultimately being the current end of one such evolutionary pathe. there were, at one time or another, many different humanoid species that evolved from simple apes. they, however, did not evolve into prosperous species and ultimately died out.
now i personally am an atheist and believe that god had nothing to do with the creation of our universe because he doesn't exist. in the study of science and space there are various known facts that are rather hard to except because they go against common sense. for instance the fact that nothing is ever destroyed. there is the same amount of matter in this universe as there was 4.55 billion years ago. nothing is ever destroyed or created, simply changes form as matter or energy (i.e. the law of conservation of mass and energy). anyway, my point is only that things that we know as fact are sometimes hard to accept. and the notion that the universe has just always existed is something that is difficult for people to grasp or accept. the big bang was not the beginning of the universe, simply the beginning of it's current form. it is constantly expanding and will one day reach as far as it can expand and it will then begin to collapse upon itself. and then one day the universe will again collapse to the point where the big bang happens again. this is has been happening for eternity. there have mostly been millions of big bangs and universes, each one different depending on the expansion and collection of matter and energy.
so back to the original intention of this topic. intelligent design is the latest attempt of religion to evolve to keep up with evolution and science. you'll notice as science continues to further itself and make new discoveries religion continually has to retract its previous beliefs to at least stay with science. i mean it used to be that god created adam and eve 6000 years ago and every living creature. religion and the concept of god make no sense to me. people created god because they didn't understand the world. it's much simpler to blame water falling from the sky on some omnipresent all-knowing god that controls the world.
that's just my two cents i suppose.
It Burns When I Pee Pee wrote:my only issue with evolution, is the theory that humans evolved from apes. i always thought that evolution occured when the species had to change to be able to adapt to the surroundings. so if the apes werent good enough and we evolved into humans, then why are there still apes? it seems like they would have become extinct.
Evolution is simply a mutation that has favorable qualities which allow those qualities to be passed on (AKA: natural selection), after MANY years this results in a completely different being. This does not mean that the evolved species has to replace the original. Humans simply fill a different niche. If this was not true all ocean life would not exist because the shark is such an astounding predator and therefore superior.
Intra-species evolution is obvious, just look at the differences in races. While none are better than the rest, the difference is striking. Africans have dark skin that better copes with sun exposure and curly hair that is better at dissipating heat. Eskimos have shorter limbs, strait hair and a shorter and thicker torso to keep heat in. Some might say this proves ID but through genetic research it has been "proven" that we all evolved from africans.
***WARNING: loaded question ahead!***
I think you have to ask yourself "Do I believe in research and data conducted and obtained over hundreds of years by some of the most intelligent people society has to offer or do I believe in an ancient book written by people who still thought the earth was flat?"
One mans proof is another mans BS.
It Burns When I Pee Pee wrote:my only issue with evolution, is the theory that humans evolved from apes. i always thought that evolution occured when the species had to change to be able to adapt to the surroundings. so if the apes werent good enough and we evolved into humans, then why are there still apes? it seems like they would have become extinct.
(i dont know much about evolution, i did @!#$ty in science lol, so if someone could enlighten me, i'd appreciate it)
Current Apes and humans evolved from the same species, but you have to go way, WAY back to find the missing link. We're descended from a point that is far back, and just grew apart from there.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
That is correct. Darwin's book, the origin of species, points out what gam said. We didn't evolve from them, we had a common ancestor, we just branched out differently on the evolutionary tree. At least that's what his book says.
I'm not quite sure about intelligent design myself, I know I don't buy it personally, but I don't shun any sort of teachings from anyone.
I have no official stance on this personally. I believe what I believe,
The biggest problem I have with Evolution is that it is still and always going to be a Theory that people try and substantiate as a fact.
The same can be said for Intelligent Design/Creationism. Christians believe that God created everything...that's our fact.
Why is it, if both cannot be proven or disproven, that Creationism or ID cannot be taught in school as a objective view to Evolution if both could be considered Theories and are not proven facts other than someones personal beliefs? Off topic but just had to throw it in there.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
There is no way to proove or dis-prove either theroy as fact or fiction. Some even say yes evolution is what happened but that it happened because God made it happen.
Me? I don't really know which to believe in as both have holes big enough to drop the Earth thru.
And if your questioning God then your stuck. When I asked that very same question to a priest once he told me that how can we as a finite person ever expect to be able to understnd the infinte that is God. Which actualy does make some sence when you think about it. I mean for us everything has a begining and an end so how could we understand something that has always been and will always be?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Exactly, and with hahaha's post, we can and have gone round and round about that for ages (his stance summed up by what he said--my stance summed up that if you "dumb" down the dimensions into somethign that most people can fathom, time is cyclic, infinity is the only absolute, and nothing is created, only changed). Again that debate will never be won.
But again, looking at some ancilliary results: The Bay City Rollers, The Spice Girls, Hansen, Paris Hilton, Reality shows, the Ice Capades, The L.A. Riots, The O.J. Trial, Militant Religious Fundamentalists, Keenau Reeves, Tori Spelling, John Denver on Comact Disc, Benny Hinn, the last 43 presidents and their administrations, Jaws 4, Battlefield Earth, The Bnbearable Lightness of Being, Futureshock, Charles Dickens, Ursula K. LeGuinn, Oprah Winfrey's continued sucess, Dennis Rodman, and the initial cancellation of "Family Guy" do not strike me of the work of an intelligent being. Thus, I think the theory should be renamed to "incompetant design"
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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HAHAHA-
yeah i understand that. but there cant be a uncreated one. its not possible.
also, most of the articles and stories ive read are people saying that we did not EVOLVE. they are arguing that we spontaneously WERE humans from nothing. and that is just illogical. and that is where my comments are directed.
Ahh but if anything at all is infinate it cannot be created. See, as an infinate, it has no beginning and no end. If there is no beginning, then taht's it, there is no creator of said infinity.
The problem is your concept of infinity. If there must be a creator for even infinate things, then they are not really infinate. Infinaty if it exists would permiate all things as it is boundless and never ending, no terminal point, period. Otherwise said infinity would not be infinate. See?
The Bible does not contadict evolution at all, it only says that God made everything, it does not state by what mechanism things were made. Any Bible beliver who says God made man and all things as we see them has been adding words to the text. It says, made the universe from nothing, made plant life, fish, birds etc, then made humans. Nowhere does it say how things were made or how long it took. Anyone who thinks otherwise is mistaken. If they say that churches teach otherwise, they are wrong about that too. Any church that teaches otherwise is misleading their perisoners. The Catholic faith determined through much arguing etc, that Athansius and Later Auinus were right, that God planted the seeds of life that grew into what we know today. These were not stupid peaple and while they did not knwo as much about biology as we do now, they also knew that things did change with time. As far as they were concerned it was all part of God's grand plan, and it was not a problem. In fact it only became a problem when science split from the church (all the first science was funded by the church as well as all of the first schools of higher learning). There were those who just simply made up stuff in order to argue with Darwin. They (those people) are at fault, not the religion itself as it never made such claims.
Athanasius's "Created evolution" is almost exactly the same argument as Intelligent design proponents make now, but for some reason they think the 1600 year old idea is new. Silly humans, always forgetting where they came from to further their own self-gratitude.
We stand on the shoulders of giants, we should never forget that.
PAX
We can observe micro-evolution, and devolution, and from that extrapolate a larger theory. We cannot however, observe Micro-creation or de-creation (just recreation).
Darwin never said there was no God, he was Anglican his entire life... He said that he bible's theory of creation was not accurate.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Nor was it intended to be. The Bible is a religious book, to teach lessons about life, and death. Not a science book, not a history book. It does not need to be accurate in order to convey it's message. TYhe message really is that God made everything (in that section) the mechanisms are not important for its purpose.
PAX
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:
i just get frustrated by this whole damn debate. because it seems so illogical.
Both sides have the "well, then, where did THAT begin?" problem.
Our true failure, in my eyes, is our refusal to admit the possibility we just aren't intelligent enough to understand.
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Well said AGuSTiN, well said indeed. Is evolution the answer ? maybe. But whos to say we didn't evolve because God wanted us to ? Neither theroy is right nor wrong and its not implausable that they may be interconnected. When the Bible says life was created in X amount of time, well how do we know what that measure actualy is ? Maybe God has a longer day then we do, maybe its shorted. Noone knows. But I think its silly to fight over it. But then people have been fighting and killing because of Gods word since time began. Funny, all the different versions of God call for peace and understanding and yet the followers are willing to kill you if you doubt it.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
the theory of evolution is not a theory as we think of the term. it is actually proven, not simply what scientists think happen. a scientific theory is fact, not a plausible explanation. that's one of the huge misunderstandings because people hear theory and think well then it's just what they think happen. when in reality they can prove it.
Tristan, Unfortunetly it CAN NOT be prooven due to the "MISSING LINK" Once it is found it then can once and for all end the debate. But alas as of now it has not been therefor there is a HUGE gap in the THEROY of evolution that has yet to be explained.
This is why it is still called a theroy. Find the missing link and then you will have your proof of evolution.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Several skeletal remains have been found that could be described as the "missing link". So even though there is no way to really prove it with 100% certainty yet it doesn't take much to see that the link between humans and ape like creatures probably exist.
The argument that evolution and ID are both theories and are therefor equal is BS. One argument has an unimaginable amount of proof, while the other has no proof at all. Thats like saying the "theory" that babies come from a woman is equal to the theory that they are dropped by storks. It's funny that people who believe in a theory with no proof at all use the smallest gap in another theory to disprove it. I think most people would agree that evolution occurs in other species, but somehow think that humans are above it.
BTW:[URL=www.askphilosophers.org]askphilosophers.org[/URL] is an interesting read on this subject and others.
this gap you speak of is a bs argument. because no matter how many species and steps in the evolutionary pathe creationists argue that there is still a missing link. you find the "missing link" between two steps and then creationists argue that you need to find a link between the first one and the missing link and then between the missing link and the next step. it is impossible to find EVERY single step in the path of our evolution. and even if there is only one missing link, there is still enough information to prove evolution. there is no HUGE gap in evolution. that is a typical creationist argument. they are wrong, im sorry. creationists will come up with anything to try and disprove evolution or that it only mildly exists. it's ridiculous. i cant comprehend how people can believe the bs that inside you know you're right even though all the facts prove you wrong. there's a quote that says "if god wanted us to believe in him, then why'd he create logic?"
