This is not what needed to happen...These goddamn ACLU @!#$s are not helping the situation either. Bringing this issue back into the forefront is dangerous....O'Reilly said it first a couple weeks ago...Releasing new pictures is going to do nothing but anger the ragheads. It's unbelieveable that this passed...I think we need to torture some of these ACLU jerkoffs.





Judge: Release Abu Ghraib Photos
Thursday, September 29, 2005


NEW YORK — A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib (search), rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.

U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein said that terrorists "do not need pretexts for their barbarism" and that suppressing the pictures would amount to submitting to blackmail.

"Our nation does not surrender to blackmail, and fear of blackmail is not a legally sufficient argument to prevent us from performing a statutory command. Indeed, the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed," he said.

Hellerstein ordered the release of 74 pictures and three videotapes from the Abu Ghraib prison, potentially opening the military up to more embarrassment from a scandal that stirred outrage around the world last year, when photos of the 2003 abuse became public.

Click here to view the judge's Abu Ghraib ruling (pdf).

The photographs covered by Thursday's ruling were taken by a soldier. A military policeman who saw them turned them over to the Army. Some may be duplicates of photos already seen by the public.

(Story continues below)

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An appeal of Hellerstein's ruling is expected, which could delay release of the pictures for months.

Gen. John Abizaid (search), commander of U.S. Central Command, said Thursday that releasing the photos would hinder his work against terrorism.

"When we continue to pick at the wound and show the pictures over and over again it just creates the image — a false image — like this is the sort of stuff that is happening anew, and it's not," Abizaid said.

The American Civil Liberties Union (search) sought release of the photographs and videotapes as part of an October 2003 lawsuit demanding information on the treatment of detainees in U.S. custody and the transfer of prisoners to countries known to use torture. The ACLU contends that prisoner abuse is systemic.

"It's a historic ruling, said ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero. "While no one wants to see what's on the photos or videos, they will play an essential role in holding our government leaders accountable for the torture that's happened on their watch."

The government argued that America's enemies might exploit the pictures for propaganda purposes by saying the photos represent the attitudes of all Americans toward the Iraqi people.

The judge acknowledged such a risk but said "the education and debate that such publicity will foster will strengthen our purpose, and, by enabling such deficiencies as may be perceived to be debated and corrected, show our strength as a vibrant and functioning democracy to be emulated."

Bridget F. Kelly, a spokeswoman for the U.S. attorney's office in Manhattan, said her office was reviewing the ruling and considering its options.

Gen. Richard B. Myers (search), chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, had argued in court papers that releasing the photographs would aid Al Qaeda recruitment, weaken the Afghan and Iraqi governments and incite riots against American troops.

But the judge said: "My task is not to defer to our worst fears, but to interpret and apply the law, in this case, the Freedom of Information Act, which advances values important to our society, transparency and accountability in government."

The ACLU had sought the release of 87 photographs and four videotapes altogether. The judge viewed the pictures and videotapes and ordered some of them edited. Romero said those images apparently contained so many redactions that they would have been unintelligible.

The judge said the pictures were important because they were the best evidence of what happened and because they "initiate debate, not only about the improper and unlawful conduct of American soldiers, 'rogue' soldiers, as they have been characterized, but also about other important questions as well."




http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/onlyatmidnight12/hurt.jpg

im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

They are the A.C.L.U. right ? Doesn't the "A" stand for American ? What the hell business is it of theres what happens ? And last I heard the Military does not listen to civilian courts only military ones.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

What an idiot the last thing we need is to stir up some more trouble over there. The people have already seen what happened and to release more pictures of the same stuff is absurd.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

/\ /\ /\ Great point, Whos to be held acountable if upon the release of these pics theres a rise in attacks and more troops get killed ? The ACLU should be sued for a change if
even so much as 1 soldier is killed in retribution for the pics being released.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

not only that, but theres no reason to release the rest of the photos, its embarrassing to america, and especially embarrassing for the iraqi's photographed, to protect thier dignity they shouldn't release them


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Well, there's 2 options:
1. OWN the problem, and fix it.
2. Sweep it under the rug, and have it continue to bit you in the ass for the next 30 years.

Enough photographs were available to incite the dull minded either way, and suppressing the ones that haven't been released would be seen as admitting all Americans (and westerners by extraction) were complicit in the prisoners' humiliation, and THAT would feed the fire even more.

If you want to reach back into history (because this has happened before), the US military wanted to suppress THIS PHOTOGRAPH, not because of what actually happened when it was taken, but the perception of what is in the photo.

There have been misrepresentations of the true story, and though it is about a monumental foul up, those are still Americans in the background, and that gave an unpopular war even more fire. Knowing there was a problem in the first place isn't what brings the ire and fury of your enemies... it's the attempt to cover up a smaller infraction that is the greater lie.

You think it's going to bring problems? Whatever will come would be nothing if you tried to hide it.

Also, the ACLU won it's case. If you think they're the problem, you need to examine what brought the whole situation about in the first place. Not the ACLU, not the Judge that ordered the photos released (not published, that's not within the power of jurisprudence)... It was a group of soldiers (doesn't matter that they were Nat'l Guard, not regular military) that substituted their jobs for rubbing the prisoner's faces in the fact that they got caught.

Lose sight of that issue, and you're not getting the whole idea of making reparations and ending the problem before it gets worse.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

well we should admit fault, we are at fault for what happend, but i don't think that the photos should be released, for the dignity of the prisoners involved, if i was photographed as they were, i would not want the public to see them


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

mikec2003 wrote:well we should admit fault, we are at fault for what happend, but i don't think that the photos should be released, for the dignity of the prisoners involved, if i was photographed as they were, i would not want the public to see them

We have admitted we were at fault...what happened is still being taken care of to this day..all this is releasing more of what we have seen already..there's enough that we already know about...why the hell do people need to see more pictures...it's not going to change anything....it's all a bunch of horse pucky.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/onlyatmidnight12/hurt.jpg

im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

yeah thats pretty much what im saying, no good will come of releasing more photos, just more unneded embarassment for everyone involoved, especially the iraqis, and they take stuff like that a lot more seriously than we do. i just think that there is no good reason to let the other pictures out


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Whole post.

Tru dat.

So what the rest of you guys are telling me is that you WANT the government to withhold information? Someone mentioned that it is embarrasing to America and that's why it should be hidden. I say it should be released BECAUSE it is embarrasing. It's a reminder to not let anything like this happen again. Like GAM said, if you were the enemy, which would piss you off more, the US publicly admitting that they messed up and owning up to it, or sweeping it away and pretending it never happened?


______________________________________________________________

ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

/\ yep.

but i see it different than that glace, yeah, its witholding information, but who says the gov't has to tell us everything, some things are need to know, and we don't need to know every detail of what happened there, and mainly i don't think the photos should be released because, think if you were a prisoner there, would you want more photos released of you being treated like an animal, havent' you suffered and been embarrassed enough? i know i'd just want the whole issue to be over so i could start to move on with life again, the world knows we messed up, they know we treated them like crap. to me, releasing more photos is like going to japan and making fun of them because we nuked them, all its gonna do is piss off more people for no reason


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Glace wrote:

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Whole post.

Tru dat.

So what the rest of you guys are telling me is that you WANT the government to withhold information? Someone mentioned that it is embarrasing to America and that's why it should be hidden. I say it should be released BECAUSE it is embarrasing. It's a reminder to not let anything like this happen again. Like GAM said, if you were the enemy, which would piss you off more, the US publicly admitting that they messed up and owning up to it, or sweeping it away and pretending it never happened?

OK....WE ALREADY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!....WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO BEAT A DEAD HORSE WHEN IT CAN MEAN LIVES BEING AT STAKE? The issue has been addressed...the entire world already knows about it...why the hell do we need to have it wind up all over the tabloids again?!...It's embaressing sure...it was when it was first discovered....but pushing to have stuff like this released by the ACLU because they are practically just wanting to make their point..some things are just a little more important to this country than that.....and I quote




A national disgrace , that is the subject this evening's "Talking Points Memo."

At the behest of the ACLU (search), federal judge Alvin Hellerstein (search) has ordered the government to release more pictures of the Abu Ghraib abuse. This, despite the fact that General Richard Myers (search), chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told Hellerstein that the pictures would put U.S. military personnel in even more danger. And the general told us there's nothing new in those pictures.

At first, Hellerstein gave lip service to Myers, saying the general's concerns had to be taken seriously. But today, the judge rejected the safety of the troops saying, "Terrorists do not need pretexts for their barbarism."

Apparently, Hellerstein missed the Newsweek (search) Koran debacle, where 15 people were killed immediately after a bogus report by that publication, inciting impulsive violence is done on a case-by-case basis.

Now I'm so angry at Hellerstein's ruling, I cannot even describe it. First of all, I apologize to everybody American soldier all over the world on behalf of the vast majority of Americans who don't agree with Hellerstein and the ACLU.



Unfortunately, America is a divided country and there are elements in it like the ACLU, who will put soldiers in jeopardy for ideological reasons.

Hellerstein's a liberal judge, appointed by Bill Clinton (search). He and his wife have been consistent donors to left wing politicians. And the ACLU is thrilled to have him hearing the case. But all of that is no solace to young Americans risking their lives right now in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places. It is absolutely disgraceful that they should be facing even more danger because of this ruling.

Now maybe something good will come out of this. Hellerstein's ruling is so dangerous and irresponsible, the ACLU's crusade is so over the top, that perhaps Americans not angered by the far left before, will finally figure it out.

The far left element in America is a destructive force that must be confronted when it puts Americans in danger. There's no question Hellerstein has aided the terrorists by his ruling. No question at all. They can't wait to get these pictures. The BBC, CBC, French media, and many American newsrooms also can't wait. Why? Because the pictures will hurt the Bush administration. That's why. Once again, ideology trumps the safety of Americans.

Now I firmly believe most Democrats are as angry with Hellerstein's ruling as I am. I heard from some of them today on the radio. This is a far left problem, not a mainstream problem.

Finally, where the deuce is the Pentagon? How many generals stepped up today to denounce Hellerstein's ruling? They should be all over the media. There's an old adage in the military, look out for your guys. Are they looking out for their guys? And that's “The Memo.”


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170889,00.html


Watch the video..read...learn..think


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/onlyatmidnight12/hurt.jpg

im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

Why sould we know? maybe because I believe in freedom of information.

And as for the "incitement" that it could cause the terrorists, i could care less. I'm not about to give up my freedoms and liberties because some pussy WASP is under the false belief that life is sacred and that they don't want to die, and hence, they want the government to lie to us, cover up, and reduce our liberties and freedoms to the point of becoming a totalitatrian state.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

mikec2003 wrote:but i see it different than that glace, yeah, its witholding information, but who says the gov't has to tell us everything, some things are need to know, and we don't need to know every detail of what happened there, and mainly i don't think the photos should be released because, think if you were a prisoner there, would you want more photos released of you being treated like an animal, havent' you suffered and been embarrassed enough? i know i'd just want the whole issue to be over so i could start to move on with life again, the world knows we messed up, they know we treated them like crap. to me, releasing more photos is like going to japan and making fun of them because we nuked them, all its gonna do is piss off more people for no reason

Tell me you don't honestly believe that.

If I was a prisoner, I would want the whole world to know exactly what happened. What I wouldn't want is for it to be swept away. It's not making fun of them or embarassing, it's acknowledging that this did happen and will be a reminder for others.

Gonzo: Your article is not applicable at all since it is an opinion article. I can't watch the video now since I don't have audio but will when I get the chance. Like your article says though, "Terrorists do not need pretexts for their barbarism."


______________________________________________________________

ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

It does not matter whether more pictures come out of the same @!#$ we already know happened. It was a mistake we owned up to it. If you already know what happened, already fessed up, then by not releasing the pictures your not hiding anything. BECAUSE YOU ALREADY KNOW Releasing more pictures of these barbarous acts will only incite more violence, not suppress it, and by not releasing you will incite nothing. BECAUSE THEY ALREADY KNOW.


____________________________________________________________________

Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

We've fessed up, but not made reparations.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Glace wrote:

mikec2003 wrote:but i see it different than that glace, yeah, its witholding information, but who says the gov't has to tell us everything, some things are need to know, and we don't need to know every detail of what happened there, and mainly i don't think the photos should be released because, think if you were a prisoner there, would you want more photos released of you being treated like an animal, havent' you suffered and been embarrassed enough? i know i'd just want the whole issue to be over so i could start to move on with life again, the world knows we messed up, they know we treated them like crap. to me, releasing more photos is like going to japan and making fun of them because we nuked them, all its gonna do is piss off more people for no reason

Tell me you don't honestly believe that.

If I was a prisoner, I would want the whole world to know exactly what happened. What I wouldn't want is for it to be swept away. It's not making fun of them or embarassing, it's acknowledging that this did happen and will be a reminder for others.

Gonzo: Your article is not applicable at all since it is an opinion article. I can't watch the video now since I don't have audio but will when I get the chance. Like your article says though, "Terrorists do not need pretexts for their barbarism."

yes i do honestly believe that, we don't need to know every little detail about everything, we already know enough of what happened there, we screwed up, and did stuff we shouldn't have to prisoners, what else is needed to know? and yeah the gov't needs to keep secrets from us, its the way it is, they don't need to and shouldn't tell us everything. and if i was a prisoner i would want the people to know that there is a pattern of misconduct going on there, but i wouldn't want all the details to be let out, especially photos.

think of it this way, if you were in prison and got raped by a guard, and he took photos, would you want the public to see every single photo of you being raped? i seriously doubt it, you may want the public to know what happened, but i doubt you'd want all the photos to be seen by everyone, and thats probably how these prisoners feel, they don't want everyone to see every photo of them being humiliated, they just want resolution to the issue, which is only fair


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

As for the government secrets

Think of it this way....We the taxpayers fund our military...well I can just imagine some left wing nutcase arguing that he pays for his military and wants to know what's being done with them...So what does he want...he wants US troop movements available to the public....I mean damn it's bad enough the kind of access the media has to defense information...but imagine what would happen. The fact is people can't handle some things...and some of those things must be denied to the public...such as military research projects....It's not on the same scale as wanting to have photographs released....but it's the same issue.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/onlyatmidnight12/hurt.jpg

im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

exactly gonzo, at least some of us understand that secrets are neccissary. if i had it my way nobody would have known about abu gharib because the media would not be in iraq. i hate media in iraq, theyre a hazard, they say stuff on the news that the enemy hears and exploits against us, they get in trouble and we have to save them, theyre not worth it, if iwas incharge the media would not be in iraq at all, because honestly, unless you have immediate family in iraq, why do you need to know exactly what we are doing there? you don't. and don't gimme that "im a taxpayer" excuse. if you don't like it, stop paying taxes


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Hey, i think all infiormation should be widely avaliable unless there is a damned good reason for it not to be. In the case of troop movements, well, no...that is a damned good reason.

But what happened in the pictures is over and done with. So, what's the harm of making them avaliable? If John Q fuzznuts is afraid that the terrorist boogeyman is out to get him, then here's a wake-up call...people die every day.

Besdies, i still se no reason why the info on JFK is still classified....why? If this is a governmet of the people, for the people, and by the people, then i say the people have a right to know. Unlwess, of course, it will just point out that we're being screwed by out government harder than most countries--which some poeple already know.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

mikec2003 wrote:exactly gonzo, at least some of us understand that secrets are neccissary. if i had it my way nobody would have known about abu gharib because the media would not be in iraq. i hate media in iraq, theyre a hazard, they say stuff on the news that the enemy hears and exploits against us, they get in trouble and we have to save them, theyre not worth it, if iwas incharge the media would not be in iraq at all, because honestly, unless you have immediate family in iraq, why do you need to know exactly what we are doing there? you don't. and don't gimme that "im a taxpayer" excuse. if you don't like it, stop paying taxes

Thanks man, for the new sig.


______________________________________________________________

ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

^^^^HAHA

Mike, I think that's a little too overboard...When something like that happens and you hide it from the public....it's called a government coverup...and that is wrong.


http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/onlyatmidnight12/hurt.jpg

im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

I will say this about the media in war zones...
if they want to go to get the in-depth coverage of what's going on, they should go over their knowing that the military will not suspend operations or waste manpower to protect their butts in case they get too close to the action.

Again, it's one of those "ignorance is no excuse, you go into it knowing that your ass will be battered and fried."

However, the information that is out there should be out there and accessible--assuming that there's not a good reason for it to be classified (official heads rolling for a big screwjob is not a valid reason). After all, you can't really blame the pictures for inciting the terrorists--what was depicted in the pictures would be just cause for them to be incited!

In other words, if you don't want people finding out--don't do it. If, because the pictures are ultimately released, and there is an attack, and the reason is those pictures, don't blame the judge who relased the pictures, blame the @!#$tards that abused the prisoners.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

We have admited fault we have disaplined the guilty parties and are looking for more.
The only think this is gonna do is cause ur guys and girls in uniform to have more s--t
to deal with over there, like they need more. This is a VERY bad idea and the pics should be, WHOOPS! lost !!!! This needs to allowed to die and go away not to be kept dreging it up just when things start to go away from the first time these things came up.
LET IT GO ! nothing good will come from this nothing at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.