If you have something to kvetch about the Branch Davidians in Waco TX, do it in this thread.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Personal opinion? Good riddance. They were a rotten bunch of people.

Something new or this about the raid from the 93?

1st off "kvetch", thats a word i have never hear of.

2nd Ummm are you little late on the topic? Or are we just presenting our inferior intellect?

Bagged Base Coupe (Tinkles) wrote:1st off "kvetch", thats a word i have never hear of.

2nd Ummm are you little late on the topic? Or are we just presenting our inferior intellect?

kvetch (kvch) Slang
intr.v. kvetched, kvetch·ing, kvetch·es
To complain persistently and whiningly.
n.
1. A chronic, whining complainer.
2. A nagging complaint: "a rambling kvetch against the system" Leonard Ross


Umm...you were saying what about GAM's inferior intellect?

All I did was type kvetch in the google search box and there is was the second listing.

This thread was derailed by talk about Waco thus the reason for this thread.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=55314&t=55314&p=1




Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Friday, June 13, 2008 10:55 AM


FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!

Knoxfire wrote:Personal opinion? Good riddance. They were a rotten bunch of people.

How do you know that? How can you possibly say that, how could you know?

It is completely normal to vilify the people killed in order to justfy the killings.. Think about say, the Donnely family, completely vilified (falsely) after they were lynched. Know why? To make the murderers feel better about what they had done. The dead cannot defend themselves.

The branch Davidians were SDA, living in a private commune, mostly keeping to themselves. Few p[eople know much about them at all. The warrant that started the whole thing was to see if they had a completely legal weapon that they might not have paid the tax on. 85 people died over a little tax money.. Think about it.

PAX


PS: This is what part of the alphabet would look like if Q and R were eliminated
- Mitch Hedberg (RIP)

The moral is simple: "Don't shoot at cops and you won't get killed."

What's good advice for black gangbangers is good advice for white religious nuts. I don't trust apocalyptic wannabe messiahs and the people who follow them. I just don't. We had the OTS (Order of the Solar Temple) up here in Quebec and when the bosses of the sect said "kill yourself and your families" the followers went with it. Killed their kids, killed themselves and burned their own houses down. I lived ONE house away from some of those crazies, I saw what happens when someone joins a weirdo sect. It doesn't matter if they're good or bad, the fact is that they're like rabid dogs. Maybe they'll bite, and maybe they won't, but thing is... you'll never know until you stick out your hand.

It's not that the Branch Davidians were bad people, it's that they were unpredictable people. That's even worse than being bad. More dangerous too.

do you know just how close the ATF was in having the Air Force OIC who's helo's they used come down there because the raid was carried out under a false pretence?

the US government murdered them, that came out in the senate hearings.


Unpredictable.....LOL


thats the US way of life. 1766, i bet the UK didn't think a bunch of farmers would kick them out of a colonies too.

look at the first amendment some time..... They were with in there rights 100%, the ATF was facing a over site comity to see if they were needed anymore, all of a sudden there going around saying that all there AR15's, legal, were M16's STILL legal, But has to be registered. they show up, executed there search warrant, knock on the door with a shot gun, and the rest is history.

I implore you to go down there and learn the truth. its sad.


Chris





"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:do you know just how close the ATF was in having the Air Force OIC who's helo's they used come down there because the raid was carried out under a false pretence?

the US government murdered them, that came out in the senate hearings.

I've read the executive summary, there's no mention of murder.

As far as the Helicopters, after the initial raid, the FBI overtook the investigation. The BATF took second fiddle per Janet Reno's order (both are under Dept. of Justice, FYI).

BTW, there was no false pretence, I'll post the warrant and a few other links. It's 12 pages, but to put it simply: The Branch Davidians were selling (then and now) illegal modifications for legal weapons (ie, full automatic conversions), inert grenades (without the firing mechanisms, but explosives in-tact) and other items. There's no false pretence, it's a legal warrant of search, and you pretty much have the choice of obeying or doing what they did. Had they not decided to shoot (doesn't matter who shot first, you shoot at police, you're going to get it back in spades), you'd see 86 more people alive still.

Quote:

Unpredictable.....LOL


thats the US way of life. 1766, i bet the UK didn't think a bunch of farmers would kick them out of a colonies too.

I'm sure the colonies would look a lot different had the French not decided to funnel arms to those farmers...

Oh as for unpredictable, Look up the War of 1812. I'm sure that no one predicted there would be British Loyalists dining at the Presidential mansion during a dinner party... or that many Americans would have preferred to trade and supply the British rather than countrymen, eh? I'd say that armed incursions of US professional soldiers (armed far better and numericly superior) into Loyalist territories repelled by Natives, conscripts and a small number of professional soldiers again, and again... I'd say that was pretty unpredictable too.

Quote:


look at the first amendment some time..... They were with in there rights 100%, the ATF was facing a over site comity to see if they were needed anymore, all of a sudden there going around saying that all there AR15's, legal, were M16's STILL legal, But has to be registered. they show up, executed there search warrant, knock on the door with a shot gun, and the rest is history.

First ammendment?

Taetsch, First ammendment guarentees freedom of speech and assembly. Perhaps you're talking about the second ammendment, which guarentees the freedom to bare arms and prepare militia's... the problem is that there are other criminal codes (federal and state) which limit the types of weapons you may own, and further that you cannot use those weapons (legal or otherwise) in the commission of a crime in any capacity. It's part of the reason people get arrested and convicted of moving weapons over state lines.

[quoteI implore you to go down there and learn the truth. its sad.


Chris
Do yourself a favour and read both sides of the story. I'll post some info when I get home.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

we then returned the favor to the french....um

and the french didn't help the farmers in concord. now did they?


2 time...


Article 1

"Congress shall make no Law respecting the Establishment of Religion, or prohibiting the free Exercise thereof; or abridging the Freedom of Speech, or of the Press or the Right of the People peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a Redress of Grievances."

P-Owned..

sorry, i have actually Fought for the this country, this entitles me to a say.


Maybe you should read all of it too.

watch the congressional hearing that were played on CNN.... Murder is stated.


All i can say is, its a good thing your in canada, because you sure are not a American.

Chris





"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fall/waco1.html
Incorrect Hahahaha, that's a link to the BATF's warrant to search the Mount Carmel Property because the agent had reason to believe that the people there were selling illegally altered weapons, full auto conversion kits (which are even now highly illegal) and at the time illegal magazines and other weapons (such as Grenades). This was when the Brady laws were in full effect. As far as the weapons (plural) that had no tax paid on them, the amount is pretty close to $35,000,

81 Davidians died, and about 25% of them had gunshot wounds. Bare in mind, of the dead that were shot and killed in the initial assault (4 BATF agents, 5 Branch Davidians), the other 16 that were killed by a combination of GSWs and smoke inhalation (it's possible that either they were breathing in smoke at the time they shot themselves or that the lungs aspirated smoke due to temperature differences) .
http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum/death/map/d_list00.html

BTW, don't forget that Timothy McVeigh used Waco as an excuse to kill 168 people... Not that he needed an excuse.

The other thing: The Davidians died by their own hands, they had poured fuel in the corridors, and perhaps lit it up (but realistically, the CS gas didn't ignite itself). Before that, they had every opportunity to comply.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege#Chronology_of_events_April_19

Realistically, what happened was a botched search warrant raid, the BATF/FBI lost the element of surprise and should have stood down and kept the property under surveillance. Hindsight is 20/20.



BTW, Kvetch is Yiddish for 'complain.' And I wouldn't make anyone out to have an inferior intellect... they usually do the work for me in that case. As far as it goes with this thread, I was trying to make the polygamists' thread keep germane to the TX Polygamists, and the Waco seige germane to that topic. Mixing the 2 topics meant that the situations were being more or less equated... and they're really very different. Polygamy (well, that and alleged child abuse and statutory rape) and Arms dealing... especially when you consider that the Polygamists didn't shoot.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Taetsch: I respect the fact that you fought for your country, but just because you did means you're automatically right.

Don't talk about illegally modified weapons, and then say you were talking about religion. In this case, what happened in Waco wasn't about religion at all, it was about illegal weaponry. Read the full text of the original warrant that I linked, and then tell me where it says that the Branch Davidians were practising a non-sanctioned religion? If you find it, please enlighten me, because I've read all 12 pages, and the accompanying affidavits from the UPS store employees, and I just ain't seeing it.

And with all due respect, the FBI and BATF didn't storm into the compound screaming "REPENT SINNERS!!!" so let's just drop the idea that what happened there had anything to do with religion.

If there was in fact anything that could be linked to the BATF or the FBI committing murder, then you would also have seen the wrongful death suits and civil rights' suits brought against the gov't show merit. They didn't. Just because a CNN talking head says something about murder, it doesn't mean that it automatically happened. I'll put it simply: If the congressional hearings found any merit to a murder charge there would have been a trial in the courts, and there wasn't. If there was any evidence that supported a charge of murder, the district attorney for Waco would have filed charges against the officers involved. You're in the military, if you start offing civilians that are non-combatants, you would expect to get caught and be charged under UCMJ, the FBI/BATF is subject to federal laws and are held to much the same standard.


BTW, they didn't get a chance to do any kind of search, it's kinda hard to conduct a search when someone is unloading their machine gun at you.

And as far as me being a bad American, I'll take that as a compliment, thanks




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Gah.. dammit... I have to re-read before I post....

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Taetsch: I respect the fact that you fought for your country, but just because you did doesn't mean you're automatically right.

Don't talk about illegally modified weapons, and then say you were talking about religion. In this case, what happened in Waco wasn't about religion at all, it was about illegal weaponry. Read the full text of the original warrant that I linked, and then tell me where it says that the Branch Davidians were practising a non-sanctioned religion? If you find it, please enlighten me, because I've read all 12 pages, and the accompanying affidavits from the UPS store employees, and I just ain't seeing it.

And with all due respect, the FBI and BATF didn't storm into the compound screaming "REPENT SINNERS!!!" so let's just drop the idea that what happened there had anything to do with religion.

If there was in fact anything that could be linked to the BATF or the FBI committing murder, then you would also have seen the wrongful death suits and civil rights' suits brought against the gov't show merit. They didn't. Just because a CNN talking head says something about murder, it doesn't mean that it automatically happened. I'll put it simply: If the congressional hearings found any merit to a murder charge there would have been a trial in the courts, and there wasn't. If there was any evidence that supported a charge of murder, the district attorney for Waco would have filed charges against the officers involved. You're in the military, if you start offing civilians that are non-combatants, you would expect to get caught and be charged under UCMJ, the FBI/BATF is subject to federal laws and are held to much the same standard.


BTW, they didn't get a chance to do any kind of search, it's kinda hard to conduct a search when someone is unloading their machine gun at you.

And as far as me being a bad American, I'll take that as a compliment, thanks Sorry, but just because I don't believe your take on a conspiracy theory doesn't mean I'm a bad person: it means that my research into something was different, and my take on something may be more informed.

I'll put it to you this way, back up your assertions with actual facts (I posted autopsy results, the original warrant, and other relevant information), don't just say "I implore you to go down there and learn the truth." without telling me first, where you'd like me to look, and next what your take on the "Truth" is. I'll also give you this bit of information that is useful when you want to decipher the truth: don't look at the story, look at the evidence and use your own brain. I don't buy the story that the Branch Davidians were just minding their own business when the big-bad government swooped in and killed 81 of them... they had to be doing something PRETTY DAMNED ILLEGAL to trip the response that they did.

Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Its OK. i see your "point".. but it was a congressman that used the word, Murder. not CNN its self.

something pretty damn illegal, like what happened with ruby ridge?

at least there he did cut a shot gun down in violation of the 1938 gun control act.

but like you say, thats off topic.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

At the time, and now, it was illegal to sell M-60 parts, AR-15 full auto conversion parts, and other items that were in the affidavit attached to the warrant. These were all sworn to by UPS store employees (because they were X-raying packages to make sure they weren't shipping illegal narcotics and other contraband items), and since UPS isn't the US postal service, it's not obligated to get a warrant to inspect your parcels.

Ruby ridge is another matter entirely.

Suffice it to say though, shooting at police or military is not something you do when you want to continue breathing. Return fire is a bitch.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

in my opinion they got what was coming to them. wether they were innocent or not all they had to do was comply with the warrant, and take care of business legally insteading of holing up and opening fire. ive been stopped by cops several times. some times for my own actions (speeding) and sometimes not my fault (suspicion of vandalism) all times i complied with the cops and nothing bad happend.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography

IT IS NOT ILLEAGLE TO SELL PARTS, the act of making the gun is illeagle.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

Taetsch Z-24 wrote:IT IS NOT ILLEAGLE TO SELL PARTS, the act of making the gun is illeagle.

Chris

It's also not illegal to use spell checker too


You're right, having the parts isn't illegal, but if you read page 4 & 5 of the warrant, they were buying the M16 - AR-15 parts and converting the AR-15's into fully automatic weapons. The proof coming from a Vietnam veteran swearing a statement that he heard automatic gunfire coming from the compound, and the Mag Bag receiving parts from other manufacturers and forwarding them on to Mount Carmel.

The other thing:

Quote:

As a result of my investigation of shipments to Howell/Koresh and Mike Schroeder at the "Mag-Bag" Corporation, Waco, Texas, through UPS and the inspection of the firearms records of Henry McMahon, dba Hewitt Handguns, Hewitt, Texas, I have learned that they acquired during 1992 the following firearms and related explosive paraphernalia:

104 AR-15/M-16 upper receiver groups with barrels 8,100 rounds of 9MM and .223 caliber ammunition for AR-15/M-16 20 100 round capacity drum magazines for AK-47 rifles 260 M-16/AR-15 magazines 30 M-14 magazines 2 M-16 EZ kits 2 M-16 CAR kits 1 M-76 grenade launcher (not a typo, this is what it says) 200 M-31 practice rifle grenades 4 M-16 parts set kits "A" 2 flare launchers 2 cases (approximately 50) inert practice hand grenades 40-50 pounds of black gunpowder 30 pounds of potassium nitrate 5 pounds of magnesium metal powder 1 pound of igniter cord (a Class C explosive) 91 AR-15 lower receiver units 26 various calibers and brands of handguns and long guns 90 pounds of aluminum metal powder 30-40 cardboard tubes

The guns were not the only reason behind the group being raided. If you take the chemicals listed, add diesel fuel, you have the explosives that were used to light up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City (well, you get most of the chemicals: McVeigh used Ammonium nitrate as the supplemental charge as I remember).

Finally,

Quote:

http://www.constitution.org/waco/affidavt.htm

David Koresh stated that Special Agent Rodriguez would be disliked because the government did not consider the group religious, and that he (Korseh) did not pay taxes, or local taxes because he felt he did not have to. David Koresh told Special Agent Rodriguez that he believed in the right to bear arms but that the US government was going to take away that right. David Koresh asked Special Agent Rodriguez if he knew that if he (Rodriguez) purchased a drop-in sear for an AR-15 rifle it would not be illegal. But if he had an AR-15 rifle with the sear that it would be against the law. David Koresh stated that the sear could be purchased legally. David Koresh stated that the bible gave him the right to bear arms. David Koresh then advised Special Agent Rodriguez that he had something he wanted Special Agent Rodriguez to see. At that point he showed Special Agent Rodriguez a video tape on ATF which was made by the Gun Owner's Association (GOA). This film portrayed ATF as an agency who violated the rights of gun owners by threats and lies.

I believe that Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh and/or his followers who reside at the compound known locally as the Mt. Carmel Center are unlawfully manufacturing and possessing machine guns and explosive devices.

It has been my experience over the five years that I have been a special agent for BATF and that of other special agents of the BATF, some of whom have the experience of twenty years or more, who have assisted in this investigation, that it is a common practice for persons engaged in the unlawful manufacture and possession of machine guns and explosive devices to employ surreptitious methods and means to acquire the products necessary to produce such items, and the production, use, and storage of those items are usually in a protected or secret environment. It is also my experience that persons who acquire firearms, firearms parts, and explosive materials maintain records of receipt and ownership of such items and instruction manuals or other documents explaining the methods of construction of such unlawful weaponry.

Davy Aguilera, Special Agent Bureau of ATF

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 25th day of February 1993 Dennis G. Green United States Magistrate Judge Western District of Texas - Waco

I stand corrected. There were a bunch of conversions performed, and they bought enough of the parts to rouse suspicions.

Either way, the BATF couldn't just sit idly by, the Branch Davidians were breaking the law.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

actually, 98% of all AR15's have M16Z2 bolts, and bolt carriers in them...

what proof is there that they broke the law?

Chris





"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

If you check on page #4/5/6 (six especially), they were using the the lowers to convert to full automatic. The company they were buying those components from was under investigation for manufacture of illegal parts (the M-16 lowers are the Firearms per NFA).

The other thing was: Koresh was buying enough parts to build and convert a whole bunch (* I think it was 26 AR-15's) of weapons, but he didn't have any registered to him, nor was he a licensed manufacturer or armourer: he had no reason to be legally purchasing those parts... As well, what was he doing buying inert grenades?





Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

who cars.

i have complaint department WWII ones at home!


besides, black powder, 12" X 1\2 inch pipes, some caps, pipe sealant, and fuse......hmmmm


anyone with a braincan take a 15, and make it have the other position. only need one part, the rest can be had easily.


had he did not have to have a reason, the 2nd amendment is a individual right, the supreme court already attested to that in the case there hearing now.


if it is a 16 lower, made and sold as such, its not illegal, to take the 15 lower, drill holes for the extra parts, and add parts, this is manufacturing.

but the O so very trusting government turned away Texas rangers when they tried to investigate the FIRE, and proceed to bulldozes the seen of the crime....

and fed all of you some bull @!#$ that the AR-15's are aluminum, so they melted in the fire........


but the selector, barrel, bolt, bolt carrier, ad pins for a M16.... are steel.

but the BATF didn't do anything wrong....

right.

what did they have to hide if this was a legit raid?



Chris






"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry

If the Branch Davidians were innocent, why did they fire on BATF agents?

Sorry to answer your question with a question, but opening fire on federal agents pretty much limits your long-term prospects.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

So, a Vietnam vet and UPS employee say I have been manufacturing something illegal (if a judge signed off on the warrant, the suspected actions were ILLEGAL). Government officials are coming to my door with the warrant, so my friends and I grab our guns and wait.

It's like the guys on COPS who take off when the squad car pulls up behind them, and then when they are caught and asked why they ran, respond with "I dunno man, I didunt do nuthin..."

Even if they didn't have what the warrant was searching for, they were hiding SOMETHING that was worth killing for.



fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster

Actually, they had more than innuendo and suspicion. They had Xrays of the packages, the bill of laying and actual inspection of contents after a package of inert pineapple grenades.

And the other thing: If a judge was compelled enough to sign off on a search warrant, you get to either comply and allow officers to search your home, or resist, and they can compel compliance. Due process was followed by the BATF and FBI, the Branch Davidians chose not to comply and in doing so chose their fate. Other than the children, they got their just deserts.


Grousing about a cover-up, or murder or what not completely misses the fact that they chose to shoot first: they intended to kill the BATF agents. Where is it that they get absolution for doing that?




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

who shot first came out in the congressional hearings, it was the fed's.

Chris


"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle sir, is not of the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

Speech at the Second Virginia Convention at St. John's Church in Richmond, Virginia (23 March 1775) Patrick Henry