So it would appear that some US troops are in fact raping and murdering innocent Iraqi citizens, and that some of the attacks were facing are due in part to retaliation for these crimes.
So some ass hat of a private decides he wants to rape some poor Iraqi woman and he does and then kills her and her whole family and burns the house down and other poor troops that nothing to do with it are killed as revenge. Now the retired general who they were speaking to on the news said the guilty parties would be subject to execution under the UCMJ for the rape and murders, but I think they should be tired for the deaths of the other soldiers who were killed in retaliation for the rape.
What do you guys think, should these rapists and murders be held countable for the deaths of other soldiers when its their actions that lead to them being killed?
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
You can't really blame the soldiers that commit those crimes for the deaths of other soldiers at someone elses hands. While the insurgents may claim that some of the killings are in retaliation for those crimes, the truth is that they would kill American soldiers even if no crime was committed. The worthless soldiers that commit those crimes should get the harshest sentence aloud, all of this really hurts our efforts over there.
bigj: You're talking about Terrorists, Jack is talking about regular civillians that don't have an axe to grind against the US troops.
Two IMMENSELY different groups of people.
I wouldn't blame a guy that is besetting revenge for his family on a US soldier that did that kind of heinous act, nor would I blame him for taking it out on the others that didn't do anything to stop it. (Before you get all antsy in your pantsy: I do NOT agree with vigilantism.)
What the f**k are your troops doing there? Giving terrorist organisations ready fodder for the organisation?
I think the deployment time needs to be limited or the troops given more time home or something... those kinds of acts are not the kind of things liberators do (for all the vitrol that I have for the excuses for the war, you're in there, and you have to deal with it).
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Jackalope wrote:So it would appear that some US troops are in fact raping and murdering innocent Iraqi citizens, and that some of the attacks were facing are due in part to retaliation for these crimes.
So some ass hat of a private decides he wants to rape some poor Iraqi woman and he does and then kills her and her whole family and burns the house down and other poor troops that nothing to do with it are killed as revenge. Now the retired general who they were speaking to on the news said the guilty parties would be subject to execution under the UCMJ for the rape and murders, but I think they should be tired for the deaths of the other soldiers who were killed in retaliation for the rape.
What do you guys think, should these rapists and murders be held countable for the deaths of other soldiers when its their actions that lead to them being killed?
While I do not agree with anyone attacking our soldiers in retaliation for such acts, I do not agree with said actoions and would probably retaliate as such in the same environment so I can not condemn them.
Big problem though, under the same logic you would hold every squad leader, platoon sergeant, first sergeant, platoon leader, commander, etc... that has made a poor decision during combat responsible for the lives of the soldiers they lost due to their poor choices.
Any of the soldiers that know aboot or were present during the rapes/murders are just as wrong as the actual offender, so if they died that is just Karma, sorry.
I thought that it was the usual terrorist that were killing the soldiers in the name of revenge for these crime. Is it the actual families killing soldiers? Either way, the other soldiers didn't deserve to die unless they tried to cover it up. The problem is that we have reached a point where we are doing more harm than good, we are hurting our efforts by trying to win through military actions. At this point we need to get on the good side of the civilians, get the government on the right track and let then Iraqi police take more responsibility. The Iraqi government has told us to give them a withdrawal date, 80%+ of the Iraqis want us out, the soldiers would like to come home, Americans want the solders home, bringing some soldiers home would save lives and HELP our efforts, yet we are "staying the course". It's not good to stay the course if it is the wrong coarse. I'm not bashing the president, it is not all his fault, it is Washington in general. They don't want it to look like they are running from a fight so they would rather soldiers die while screaming "Bring it on". Sorry that was waayy of topic, but kinda pisses me off
Those poor 2 soldiers who were kidnapped and killed were from the same unit that the rapists were from and the attack was carried out by family members of the murdered women and her family.
It was revenge.
And to answer the question about the higher ups being held responcible, they can be and probubly will be as well. They knew this happened and tried to sweep it under the rug. The actual guy who did the killing has already been discharged and is now state side, the guy who helped him is now in jail.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Quote:
What the f**k are your troops doing there? Giving terrorist organisations ready fodder for the organisation?
Is what he did ok?
No. Should he be punished?
yes
Now I took about 5 mins to calm down before I posted this, but here it goes...
Who the f*ck are any of you people to come on here and say @!#$ like that? Fodder? Excuse me, but f*ck you. How many times have you been over here? How many wars have you been in? Fodder? How about the millions upon millions we spend giving these people free f*cking health care? The free meals, the A/C, the nice warm beds we supply. The rations we hand out to people in the cities. The school that just recently was built with the help of US Army Engineers, US dollars, US supplies, US labor and US time. I personally have been part of saving multiple children's lives. Severly burned childern. 3rd degree burns over 70% TBSA because they played next to the heater in their f*cking hut. Spending countless hours in the OR draining us of supplies. We didn't push the little girls into their karasene heaters, they did that. Is that our problem when they have a local hospital that is closer to them and sustained an injury that combat had nothing to do with? Then their entire extended family has to come onto a US post and also use supplies. Spit on the floor. Use the latrines and not flush the toilet. Get caught stealing medical supplies and US uniforms. Yell and cuss at you when you ask them to allow medical staff to get to the PT and give simple ABX. Complain about the FREE food they were given when the week before they were not eating at all.
Fodder? They use and abuse our kindness and use the littlest thing as reason to start their own personal jihad against us. Jesus Christ, yes, rape is a horrible act. I do not condone it. I think that fool needs to be hit up with some serious UCMJ. Hang him by his toes. Don't you dare come up here and start talking about something you know NOTHING ABOUT. Don't make a single f*cking comment about anything until you have seen people in their late teens die in front of YOUR @!#$ EYES. I wish I could drag you @!#$s out here for one @!#$ day. Just one day to see what we put up with. Too see some prick local smile as you drive by and then yell in the house to his brother to explode the IED he has in his front lawn. F*ck you all.
Quote:
American troops rape and murder....
Excuse me? F*ck you. Do you know how many times this has happened in history? This was one @!#$ idiot in one @!#$ situation. American troops? TROOPS? F U C K YOU. Don't you ever @!#$ insult the hundreds of thousands of my fellow brothers and sisters at arms like that again. I swear to god I would @!#$ hang you by your nuts and bring a reporter with me so they could put up a nice headline for you all to put on a pedistal and whine and bitch about. NON OF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO BITCH ABOUT, YOU KNOW THAT? I just missed my son's first birthday. My wife's birthday. My first Father's Day. All in a week and a half's time. Bitch? Do you see me putting up little posts here and there crying to you @!#$s? Ohh, the president this. Boo hoo, the government that. F U C K YOU. You all make me @!#$ sick. Do you know how many @!#$ uniforms I have had to trash because they were "unservicable" from blood stains. US SOLDIER'S BLOOD STAINS. People that die every @!#$ day out here just to give you @!#$ @!#$s a nice little story to read and feel better about yourself. One person @!#$ up. One person was a @!#$ bag. One person is going to stand in front of the firing squad in a year or so after spending time in Levenworth making big rocks into little rocks. Crime = Punishment. He's going to get what's comming to him. Let it be at that. TROOPS? F U C K YOU ALL.
SGT Dan B. Maramonte
10th COMBAT SUPPORT HOSPITAL
Bravo Company "Bulldog Medics"
Train to Save, God bless America
Ohh, and YOU ARE @!#$ WELCOME FOR EVERYTHING.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, July 01, 2006 4:42 PM
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
ive said it once and ill say it again........
i dont believe that theres a devil... but if there is one, he is american. thats my take, and no one can make me think differently
You are a pathetic, unapriciative peice of @!#$. Come over here and see the pure blind hatred these people have for anything that isn't exactly within the guidlines of their particular sect of religion. You ignorant @!#$.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
Dude chill the hell out! I've been there and done that the first time we were there. I never said ALL US troops only these 2 ass hats! Dude fu-k me? I just sent you fu-king cookies you dick! Maybe juuuuuuust maybe you should find out what were talking about before you go off like an ass hat. I know your doing important work, I'm 100% behind all of you, and I understand and agree with why your there in the first place! I never posted this as an attack on you guys but to only ask if these 2 ass hats should be held liable for the deaths of the soldiers whos lives were taken in revenge. No one and I mean NO ONE on here besides maybe you is more behind you guys ! I was there, I got shot at, had sh-t blow up around me, and had to kill people so don't you think for one split second I'm one of these michael moore wanna be ass hats who thinks your all a bunch of baby killing rapists out to kill every one you see. You want to cuse out these kids who don't know sh-t from apple butter then fine by me SGT. but don't you think I'm one of them!
And just so everyone else knows a grand total of 14 American troops have ever been convicted of any wrong doing in Iraq. 14 out of how many SGT. ? True its sad that any of our guys does this sh-t but the large majority of our guys don't do anything like this at all. Most of our guys are just like Rails and myself here and these 2 ass hats give us all a bad name.
SGT. I NEVER ment for anyone to take it the way you did. I sincerly appologize to you and everyone in service if anyone of you took this the wrong way. It was NOT ment in a derogatory manor toward any of you.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Orlandomon wrote:ive said it once and ill say it again........
i dont believe that theres a devil... but if there is one, he is american. thats my take, and no one can make me think differently
If you hate us and hate it here so much then leave you prejudice ass hat.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Jack - Thank you for the apoligy. I have had a rough month. I've just dealt with a higher amount of "buisness" then usual and it's all starting to wear on me. I am sick of watching the news, reading the papers and seeing the posts of people who just can't stop talking @!#$ about something they know nothing about. I apoligize for going off like that, but I am not editing that post from what it is. It still stands to all the other people out there who feel like running their mouth.
P.S. I have not received the cookies yet, but once again thank you in advance.
Team GREEN
Suspension Division - "Handling Before Horsepower"
Making the turns since 1999
1998 EK Civic Hatch - Yes, it's a Honda.
No not terrorists! Theyd never lie!
-Borsty
Orlandomon wrote:ive said it once and ill say it again........
i dont believe that theres a devil... but if there is one, he is american. thats my take, and no one can make me think differently
well if hes american im pretty sure hes your boyfriend, because only pure evil would tell you to paint a car pink.
-Borsty
i try.
i love you too, but in a gay way.
-Borsty
AH HAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!
Dude I have tears running down my face!
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
go me im the coolest person ever, second only to david hasselhoff
-Borsty
Oh mother...
RaiLS: This is going to take some articulation, I'm really sorry that I got you flustered with this. It wasn't my intention, and I'm not
at all denegrating yours, or any soldiers' service, or dedication to the job.
That said:
RaiLS wrote:Quote:
What the f**k are your troops doing there? Giving terrorist organisations ready fodder for the organisation?
Is what he did ok? No. Should he be punished? yes
We're in complete agreement.
Quote:
Now I took about 5 mins to calm down before I posted this, but here it goes...
I'd hate to see what would have happened if you posted immediately.
Quote:
Who the f*ck are any of you people to come on here and say @!#$ like that?
We have conscience, and belive that doing the right thing the right way for the right reasons is the only way to start to fix the situation.
Quote:
Fodder? Excuse me, but f*ck you. How many times have you been over here? How many wars have you been in? Fodder?
I'm not a soldier, I've read of the situation and its background and I have knowledge of criminology. I also don't need to be a soldier to figure out that violence begets violence begets violence.
Aside from that, Jack is a Gulf War vet, and can speak from experience.
What I had meant by what you quoted (which doesn't readily translate, text scrubs out the inflection I was thinking) was that you are
NOT there to drum up personal vendetta's with Iraqi citizens and drive them to the terrorist organisations.
Quote:
How about the millions upon millions we spend giving these people free f*cking health care? The free meals, the A/C, the nice warm beds we supply. The rations we hand out to people in the cities. The school that just recently was built with the help of US Army Engineers, US dollars, US supplies, US labor and US time. I personally have been part of saving multiple children's lives. Severly burned childern. 3rd degree burns over 70% TBSA because they played next to the heater in their f*cking hut. Spending countless hours in the OR draining us of supplies. We didn't push the little girls into their karasene heaters, they did that. Is that our problem when they have a local hospital that is closer to them and sustained an injury that combat had nothing to do with? Then their entire extended family has to come onto a US post and also use supplies. Spit on the floor. Use the latrines and not flush the toilet. Get caught stealing medical supplies and US uniforms. Yell and cuss at you when you ask them to allow medical staff to get to the PT and give simple ABX. Complain about the FREE food they were given when the week before they were not eating at all.
This isn't germaine to the discussion. I can't (and neither can anyone else) help what other people do.
Quote:
Fodder? They use and abuse our kindness and use the littlest thing as reason to start their own personal jihad against us. Jesus Christ, yes, rape is a horrible act. I do not condone it. I think that fool needs to be hit up with some serious UCMJ. Hang him by his toes.
Again, declaring a personal war against a soldier for acts done (or not done) to that soldier, is one thing, the other issues are not part of it.
What that soldier did, and what his squad-mates didn't do, is inexcusable. Rape isn't a part of the mission, and look at it from the perspective of the Iraqis, you're giving help (that they really didn't want) in one hand, and then individuals (part of the greater mission) do things like Rape and murder... It's not a mixed message, they're revolting against US occupation. The evil from far away that they've heard about in mosque about is in their neighbourhoods now.
Quote:
Don't you dare come up here and start talking about something you know NOTHING ABOUT. Don't make a single f*cking comment about anything until you have seen people in their late teens die in front of YOUR @!#$ EYES. I wish I could drag you @!#$s out here for one @!#$ day. Just one day to see what we put up with. Too see some prick local smile as you drive by and then yell in the house to his brother to explode the IED he has in his front lawn. F*ck you all.
Again, this is outside the discussion... War is hell. No question.
Quote:
Quote:
American troops rape and murder....
Excuse me? F*ck you. Do you know how many times this has happened in history? This was one @!#$ idiot in one @!#$ situation. American troops? TROOPS? F U C K YOU. Don't you ever @!#$ insult the hundreds of thousands of my fellow brothers and sisters at arms like that again. I swear to god I would @!#$ hang you by your nuts and bring a reporter with me so they could put up a nice headline for you all to put on a pedistal and whine and bitch about. NON OF YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO BITCH ABOUT, YOU KNOW THAT? I just missed my son's first birthday. My wife's birthday. My first Father's Day. All in a week and a half's time.
RaiLS, here is where you need to calm down a bit, breathe, and realise we are not saying YOU personally. It was contextualised as the guy that committed the rape/murder, and those that did not attempt to stop it.
No one here knows about your personal sacrifices. I'm pretty certain that no-one wants you to have to miss those important things, but they're glad to have you and the rest that are there to do your duty.
In this case, I hate to say that a few bad apples spoiled the bunch. This isn't a slight on you personally. You're in the same boat that a lot of other service personell are when one or two go rogue, Cops, medics/doctors, fire fighters... You're in exceptionally GOOD company.
Quote:
Bitch? Do you see me putting up little posts here and there crying to you @!#$s? Ohh, the president this. Boo hoo, the government that. F U C K YOU. You all make me @!#$ sick. Do you know how many @!#$ uniforms I have had to trash because they were "unservicable" from blood stains. US SOLDIER'S BLOOD STAINS. People that die every @!#$ day out here just to give you @!#$ @!#$s a nice little story to read and feel better about yourself. One person @!#$ up. One person was a @!#$ bag. One person is going to stand in front of the firing squad in a year or so after spending time in Levenworth making big rocks into little rocks. Crime = Punishment. He's going to get what's comming to him. Let it be at that. TROOPS? F U C K YOU ALL.
Dan... chill.
I don't think that these guys should be held responsible for the deaths of the other uninvolved soldiers, I don't know exactly how that plays with UCMJ, but you can only be held directly accountable for your own acts, stateside.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Saturday, July 01, 2006 7:56 PM
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
huh? now this turns into personal attacks? thats pretty pathetic. but anyway, i have never supported the war in iraq, and never will. ill support american troops when they actually have a good cause for war. this is solely my opinion, and im not changing my mind anytime soon, so theres no point in trying to argue. but as of current events, lets just say im not very happy with americans, even if i myself am an american.
See Orlando thats better then saying we're all devils which is exactly what you did. In fact your saying what you did earily was a personal attack on Rails and Myself hes in the military and I'm X-Army so please chose your words wisly next time.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
That's still a stupid statement. If you hate Americans, any American on this board should have zero respect for you from now on. You make no distinctions, you hate ALL Americans. What if they hate the war as much as you do? That is a pretty ignorant statement and to be honest it's pretty pathetic. I could never hate all of the great AMERICANS here and abroad. America F yeahhh
Hmm, he should be tried for the crime he commited directly and not held responsible for the crimes that were comitted in retaliation.
US troops are a wee bit famous for doing this, so are Russin troops. It happened a lot in WWII (ask any German women who survived the US occupation), it happened in Vietnam, and it's happeneing again right now. Let's not pretend this is isolated.
That said, US troops are not the only ones who go crazy with combat fatique and start doing terrible things. It happens in almost every conflict with just about any army.
Prevent it with shorter tours of duty and better pyschological screening. If you live like an animal long enough, you start to act like one.
As far as all the "sacrifices" that US troops are making there now, I can only say one thing. Remember that they had a choice, the Iraqi citizens did not. Of course there will be some resistance, that's their home and no matter how you slice it, the US is an invading foreign nation, period. Millions or "billions" of "free" food and health care? Stuff that, the US is removing billions and billions worth of resources without any compensation to the public there, get over yourself. The problem is three fold, many have their blinders on and just cannot see the bad things that are happening, and why. The oil is there and must be taken. War sucks for everyone involved but each is so absorbed in their own problems they simply cannot see the other side's situation.
Plus the average soldier only sees the ground level problems, does not see the benefit of the occupation and actually thinks this is a humanitarian mission. The sooner people stop focussing on WMDs and weather or not Saddam was a threat, the sooner they'll see that this is justy like every other war, it's about resource. Like always, it's about energy. No economy can function without energy, all the money in the world could not help a nation that can't run it's factories or get its goods to market (let alone produce the goods).
A war for oil can be justified in that without the oil, the economy crumbles and that is definately within the national interest of the US.
PAX
eh... ok maybe i didnt choose m words wisely. so im gonna clarify. i DO NOT hate all americans, actually, i do not hate any american. I dislike the americans that choose to go on with this war and think this is beneficial for the iraqi ppl. while it might be beneficial, the point is they dont want us there, so we have no business there. but no, of course i dont hate all americans because of the few screw ups. thats like me saying i hate all blacks because if all the drug addict, drive by shooting music certain rappers sing, or because of the crimes certain african americans in gangs comit, which i might add, my own race - hispanics, are also notorious for stealing/gangsters/drug dealing/ etc...
so in conclusion, no I am not racist towards any race, i simply dislike the few that screw it up for the rest of us, just like in any other scenario.
oh and I agree with everything "hahaha" stated.
for one Orlando nice car but take it to canada as for RailS you KICK A@$ and keep preaching to these idiots. And Jack well it seems like we always agree on most things so yeah.... haven't been to Iraq but i support the decisions are goverment is making and the troops over their giving these people their freedom.
