I was wanting to get some of your opinions on capital punishment.

IS it justice? Or does it violate the prisoners rights as an american?
If you dont think we should have capital punishment how do YOU feel we should punish those in wrongdoing.

I think that punishment should be run as an EYE for an EYE and a tooth for a tooth. Thats how I feel. If someone steals something then the victim gets something of equal value to the thief, whether monetary or not. If someone kills somebody then they deserve to die PERIOD, no if ands or buts. IMO


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Well, hmm.. I have a few problems with capitol punishment.

First off it is a surrender to our base instincts and usually not logical. IE: Most murderers will not re-offend. Most, not all.

Second, there is a risk of putting an innocent person to death, it has happened before and it's likely to happen again.

Third, it's vengence, not justice.

It does not save money as an execution costs just as much as keeping the prisoner alive for nearly 20 years. Most death row inmates sit in jail for a great number of years anyway. Most offenders can be productive members of society with some rehab. In the case of spousal murder, the likelyhood of recurrance is truely rare. Juvenile crime falls into the same risk class.

That said, some people are lost causes that are highly likely to reoffend and perhaps death is the best answer. Theses individules are rare indeed. In Canada I can think of maybe 3 who could be thought of this way. Oag, Bernardo and Picton (if it really was him, sure looks that way), they are truely dangerous people with sociopathic tendancies (read serial killers).

An eye for an eye and the whole world's blind.

PAX

Ha ha ha ha, Has anyone close to you been murdered? Or how about raped by a repeat offender? I hope not its not fun at all. I have had friends killed for no reason
by someone who thought it was fun. I have had a friend that had been kidnapped beaten horribly and gang rapped over and over again she was missing for almost a
week before she was found laying in the middle of an old road in the middle of nowhere. Call it revenge if you want I don't care. The guy who killed my friend back in 91 is still in prison he isn't due to get out till 2041. 50 years in prison for ending the life of a very good friend of mine who was 15 years old. Not fair, he should have fried. But
this worthless piece of s--t state I live in is so f--king liberal its sickening. I'd have thrown the switch my damn self if I could have. And as for my friend who was beaten and rapped, she got pregnant from it Mr. Sunshine and rainbows. She was a very
religous person so haveing an abortion was very hard for her to do. Luckily we caught
up with one of the guys, turns out she knew him. At 3:00 in the morning me and 6 friends kicked in the door to his trailer. Took him out in the middle of the night to where she was dumped and proceeded to beat him untill we were all tired and he couldn't
move anymore. No he didn't die but he wishes he did, see we focused most of the kicks between his leggs. I found out later he had to have surgury to try to save his dick and balls. They weren't able to so they were removed. Revenge? God Damn right!
The cops knew who did it but they were doing nothing. Seems when she was taken to the hospital they found drugs in her system so the cops weren't so sure it was rape.
How in the hell can between 8 and 10 guys beating you and tieing you up not be rape?
You know what I'd do it again in a heartbeat. Some people do not deserve to live and
if the courts have the balls enough to actualy put them to death then good. I'm only sorry it takes so long for them to flip the switch. If D.N.A. proves you guilty then you are guilty and should get whatever you have coming to you.





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well, I have had a couple friends killed, one was an accident and the offender should have gotten more than what he did, but at the same time, he didn't deserve the death penalty. I have had two girlfriends raped and while it will affect them for life, the rapist was likely a young idiot who needed to be taught how to live in civil society, they do not deserve death. I'm not saying go light on the offenders, just don't kill them. They can labour away in prison.

It seems you didn't read the part of my post where I said that some do deserve it. The problem is, DNA evidence is not always available. Convictions are overturned and the wrong person often goes to jail. How about if they go to the chair? I feel it's better to err on the side of caution. "Beyond a reasonable doubt" does not mean slam-dunk their guilty, it means that they sure look guilty. Evena confession is no good. There is a guy who confessed to abusing children going free today because DNA proved he didn't do it (don't ask me why he confessed, I couldn't tell ya).

The vast majority of murders (not rapes) are one time occurances, usually spousal. Those killers deserve to be punished, but not killed.

The guy who beat, raped and murdered your friend does not fit this mould and maybe does deserve death, or maybe they deserve to sit and think about what they did for 50 years. Sometimes I think death is too easy.

At any rate, the possiblity of error is there, and I don't wanna be the guy that gave the death sentance to an innocent person.

There's a time for the death penalty, but it's rare. I think death is dealt out all to easily in some places. Texas executed a mentally handicapped person for a single homicide. The guy didn't know what he was doing, he really shouldn't have died for it.

PAX

jackalope wrote: I'd have thrown the switch my damn self if I could have.

This is where I draw the line. See, I could not throw the switch myself. I'm not an overly religious guy, but the bottom line is I will not be someone's executioner, as I believe it eliminates someone's chances to repent, and makes me a murderer as well


---

On another note...

I find most people who support the death penalty not based on their morality, or on logic, but purely on emotion. This is evidenced even here where jackalope justifies his opinion on the matter by talking about the people he knows who were hurt.

Other than one's emotion and desire for revenge, what other argument can be made that's valid and would outweight all the points Hahaha put forward?

Oh yeah, if you're going to quote the Bible Jbody2nr, don't forget the contradicting quote, "turn the other cheek".


---

It's on intresting thing to debate.

On one side, what hahaha said is true--unlike other sentancing, you can't make amends to the person if you put them to death. bam--it'sd over, so you have to be damned sure.

On the other end, no one is guarenteed the right to life in the first place. And humanity as much as it tries to be civilized, is REALLY not over it's more basal instincts.

I should say, though, that it doesn't matter if they are repeat or not--killing is killing, and unless it's an accident it still means that there's blood on your hands.

Still, i don't think capitol punishment should be outlawed--there are cases where it's necessary--if human life is such a trival thing that you yourself cannot appreciate someone elses and have to kill--not counting pure accidents or self-defense, then since you don't hold life dear, you pay with your own.

Just like rape--if you can't use your breeding organs responsibly, then you don't deserve to use them.

However, with any extreme punishment, you have to consider the ramifications, and be sure that the person recieveing them is truly guilty.






Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

I don't believe in an after life so with that I believe that spending 50 years in jail is a far more severe punishment. The cost was mentioned from that standpoint I am for the death penalty if the sentence was carried out quickly, but with that there is the chance an innocent man may not have a chance to prove his innocents. I am not sure how many would actually take the option but suicide prevention should not exist in prisons, if I went on a killing spree and was sentenced to life I would much rather make that a real short sentence. I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent either, at least not for serious crimes. Most of the time if you are going to kill or rape someone you don't stop to think "hmm I might get killed if I do this, maybe I won't". Not if the death penalty was in lace for stealing a stereo then I am sure theft would go way down.



AmazingJay

Hahaha wrote:An eye for an eye and the whole world's blind.

The whole worlds only blind if Every single person is evil in some way. Like I said commit a crime of some sort purposefully and willingly and you deserve something of equal as a punishment. That is my belief and I stand by it.

Augustin wrote:Oh yeah, if you're going to quote the Bible Jbody2nr, don't forget the contradicting quote, "turn the other cheek".

I did not even realize that I was quoting the bible, in fact I dont even know what you are referring to. You see Im not much of a religious person.

Jabbles wrote:The cost was mentioned from that standpoint I am for the death penalty if the sentence was carried out quickly, but with that there is the chance an innocent man may not have a chance to prove his innocents.

I agree here somewhat. I think that executions SHOULD be done in a timely manner.
Although I think capitol punishment should only be used if we are beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person is guilty. Meaning that there should not be a person trying to prove their innocent (if they really are) on death row.


My opinion of an eye for an eye stays the same for EVERY type of wrongdoing imaginable. Only if it was done purposefully and willingfully with no reason for doing so.




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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Sorry guys I just don't like to see people get hurt. And if the people who hurt them will
keep doing it then by all means end there life. Sorry if I got a little carried away there but
I guess I have some anger issues when it comes to this subject. My dad was a cop for almost 20 years. For the better part of my life I watched my dad go to work everyday not knowing if hed even come home because of some murderer getting paroled for good behaivior. You can not rehabliatate these type of people sorry but you can't its been proven time and time again by the shrinks. They're wired wrong, have a screw loose,
whatever you want to say but there is no fixxing them. So why then should they be allowed to live off the tax payers money for the rest of there lives? Put them out of everyones misery and fry them.

Now true when I was in the army I did unfortunatly have to kill some people I have to live with that for the rest of my life. But if I hadn't done what I did more would have lost there lives. Children would never have been born, Hell my youngest daughter wouldn't be here and neither would I.

If you like to quote the bible then at least use the correct translation of the commandment. If you translate it word for word it reads " THAL SHALL NOT DO MURDER UNTO ANOTHER " Murder and killing someone are 2 completely different things. Murder is me coming up to you for no reason and shooting you in the head.
Killing someone would be you attack me and try to kill me but the only way I can stop you is to kill you. Thats the difference. I've squared with myself as to what went down
but if I had to do it again I would and again I would not hesatate for a second.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

If we're gonna get Biblical about this then the expression "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" must be put in context.

First off it's old testament and was over ruled by the New Testament of Christ. Second, it was a call for rational punishment. At the time, the people it was directed at had the habit of over-doing it. If one person from their village was murdered they'd murder the entire village of the offender, or their entire family if the offender was local. God was calling for even-handed justice, not a knee jerk emotional response.

Hmm, seems to be very much along the lines of what I'm saying.

PAX

http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=16618&t=14841#16618

^^^ this is a subject I've said my piece on

- Death penalty is merely punitive.
- Capital punishment does not prevent crime
- It is FAR more more expensive to execute a convict than it is to warehouse them for life (over 35 years)
- Numerous cases of death-row exonerations through disproven testimony, DNA evidence, supressed evidence/new evidence have begun to cast doubts on the validity of death sentences.

I find it very hard to reconcile the notion that it's okay to kill to say killing is wrong.

The death penalty is a bad idea all around.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Your proven 100% guilty DNA says you did it Eye witnesses saw you do it......... FRY.
It theres a doubt in anyones mind if you did it then no life in prison. And the message it sends is a very good one kill someone get caught and die yourself. I got no problem with that. Can't figure out why anyone would.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Jack: I, better than most, on this board know how easy it is to plant evidence (even DNA and fingerprints), and I also know, better than most, how unreliable eye-witness testimony is.

I'm saying that killing someone even with the most iron-clad, impenetrable, salm-dunk case is wrong.

Why?

In the case of murder, do we as society stoop as low as the wanton murder does? Killing even the most vicious, twisted and narcisistic person says that we are only as good as that person is... at best.

Life imprisonment in Max security facilities is already warehousing the worst offenders in the penal system.. it costs less, and they aren't going to be able to do anything much or go anywhere... isn't that enough?

The problem is simple, and it's shared by the US, China, Saudi Arabia, most african countries, and many asian countries that practise capital punishment: you do not have a "corrections system," you have a "penal system." You don't seek to find out and rectify a social/mental maladjustment, you seek to punish the interloper.

The problem, is that by punishing the person in question, nothing is gained except some rudimentary and barbaric sense of "satisfaction" that echoes from about 100 000 years ago (I have a lot more to say about the mandatory minimum sentences, but that's another thread altogether).

The thing that you're neglecting, is that many of the people incarcerated for captial crimes after 1998 (when DNA registries became mandated both in both state and federal law-enforcement levels) were convicted on "slam-dunk cases," with shakey evidence. No case is 100% without doubt, but I've seen the front end (as a juror alternate before I got into the RCMP) and the back end (as SOCo) and the inbetween. I've read about misconduct on the prosecution's side, the bribing of witnesses, and the conviction and sentencing to death of innocent people.

Trust me. No case is airtight. No case has 0% doubt. No case deserves the death penalty.

There is no way, I could say that anyone deserves to die that badly.

It's cliche, but I would rather see 100 felons go free than one innocent convicted and put to death. The felons, you see, are creatures of habit, and will inevitably re-offend, and they will be caught.. someone uninvolved or not guilty of a crime being put to death... you can't take it back, you can't atone, you can't make ammends... you can't say oops, sorry, on you go about your daily business.

This is all academic until YOU are the one wrongly accused. I would rather be able to live to see my freedom, personally.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Few comments.


The death penalty isnt meant to be a deterrant. By that logic you can just say prison isnt a deterrant and just let all the killers go.


Ever hear of the name Randy Greenawaly from Arizona , go ahead Goggle it if you want. Guy was in jail for murder, broke out of jail and killed 5 more people. Finally he was executed in 1997 and guess what he hasnt killed anyone ever again.

I dont see why it is that I should have to pay millions of my tax dollars for some guy to live in jail, who raped and killed a 5 year old girl, or anyone for that matter. Why should he get to live and visit with his family and write letters and get pen pals, and all that @!#$. While his victim is dead and their family will forever be grieving for what the guy did.

If it was up to me we would be executing people on a daily basis. None of this 15 years of appeals and BS, about being abused as a kid and Dad wasnt there, and this and that. You kill someone thats just tough @!#$ off to the execution chamber with you.


I would also like to see some changes to the death penalty law. For example a person cant be convicted based on a single witnesses testimony, they need concrete evidence , blood stains, camera, DNA, something besides a witness.






- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=16618&t=14841#16618

^^^ this is a subject I've said my piece on

- Capital punishment does not prevent crime
- It is FAR more more expensive to execute a convict than it is to warehouse them for life (over 35 years)
- Numerous cases of death-row exonerations through disproven testimony, DNA evidence, supressed evidence/new evidence have begun to cast doubts on the validity of death sentences.

I find it very hard to reconcile the notion that it's okay to kill to say killing is wrong.

The death penalty is a bad idea all around.

So if the DP doesnt prevent crime, maybe prison doesnt either, lets just get rid of all the laws.

You said it is more expensive to keep someone in jail for 35 years. This is assuming that the guy kills at around age 40, since life expectancy is mid 70s. But the median age for people on death row is 27. So 27 + 35 = 62, so what let them go at age 62?

Plus people in prison have heart attacks, need medication, have surgery. We had to pay for a guy to have a sex change operation. Here something else for you, the only woman on Nevadas death row, her name is also on the list for people who need a kidney, yeah so lets give someone who is a killer a new kidney so they can live. Rather than some law abiding citizen who has a job and four kids. That really makes sense.



- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=16618&t=14841#16618

^^^ this is a subject I've said my piece on

.

Dammit GAM, I USED the SEARCH button, @!#$

GAM wrote:100 felons go free than one innocent convicted and put to death

But what if those 100 felons go out a commit their crimes again, killing more people this time, wouldnt you think the life of one innocent should be traded for the lives of more? But now is when you start to get into What if's and what if's dont count.


Hahahaha: My belief in an eye for an eye is not the same as of what you speak. If somebody cut off someones finger, then they should have a finger severed too...not a hand.


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

Thanks Rob, Gam those ideas are great unfortunatly most won't work in the real world.
Right now for example is a tripple murder case in Baltimore city where 3 childern ages
5, 7, and 9 I believe were murdered by two friends of the family. The family even called them uncles. The two men wanted the mother of the three to sleep with them both at the same time. She said no the husband laughed it off as a joke. A couple weeks
later the two uncles came to the house when mom was out shopping and dad was at work. They knocked on the door and the poor kids let them in. Thats when the 2 took
the 3 kids tied them up beat them terribly started to strangle the 2 brothers but they faught as hard as they could with being tied up so the 2 uncles went to the kitchen and
got knives and started to cut there throwts till they had de-capatated one boy and allmost they other. Then they turned there attention to the 9 year old little girl. They proceeded to rape her one in her vag the other in her mouth. She couldn't bite down they punched her teeth down her throwt. After they finished up they cut off her head as
well. Then they urinated on the bodies and took a s--t on them climbed out the window and left. They were caught later because they were bragging as to what they had done to the kids one night in a bar. They were both arrested the next day now they are on trial.
We have finger prints of theres on the door all over the kids bodies the knives there DNA was found in the little girls vag and stomach the blood stained pants and shirts
these guys wore were found and the kids DNA is all over them. But the defence is trying to say it was all plated that there inocent. B.F.S. These are the kind of people who DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE !!!! I can not even see how you would try to defend these guys from getting put to death, why in Gods name are they worth keeping alive? They will be found guilty, way to much evidence to think otherwise. Please
explain to me, or better yet to the parents of those poor kids as to why these men should be allowed to live. I'd love to see you try.

Moveing on next case. How about the couple in Tennesee who the husband would have been in jail till 2045 on something like that and his wife who in cold blood shot a gaurd 5 times with a 12gauge shotgun while breaking her husband out of custody.
They were caught last night, now there are like 20 witnesses who saw her kill the gaurd
those same witnesses heard the husband yelling at her "kill him, kill him, kill him !! "
They should be both put to death. Again I can not see how you can argue against this.
These people do not deserve to live.

Finily last arguement how can we as a socioty expect people to value life if we allow
a woman to kill an un-born baby? And if we allow this because we say its her right
well what about the rights of the un-born baby? You can not allow abortion on one hand and then scream about the right to life of a murderer. It does not work that way.
If we continue to allow the killing of innocent babies then you should not open your mouth when it comes time to flip the switch for these types of monsters. THEY DO NOT DESERVE TO LIVE PERIOD AND OF IT. And there is nothing you can argue
differently.



Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

^^^^^^^

Exactly, to the people who oppose the death penalty. Why in the hell should these people be allowed to live for? There is no valid reason at all for keeping them around. What if they managed to break out of prison and come and kill YOUR family. Then would be there in court saying "well see it isnt right to kill anyone plus kiling them wont deter and more murders, and they may or may not kill again this time, but because I value human life so much they need to live" Or do you only say that when it isnt your family involved?
If it ws up to me they would all be shot right after the guilty verdict, take em' out back hold a 9mm to their head and say so long bitch.

I would bring up abortion in a different thread. Pretty soon it will turn into both things, DP and abortion.




- 2004 Cavalier - 124k, owned since new

your right Rob. Sorry I was just drawing a comparison. But with the lack of responce my post has thus far recieved I see that noone can agrue that these people have the right to live. We are right in wanting these monsters put to death.


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Rob S wrote:
Plus people in prison have heart attacks, need medication, have surgery. We had to pay for a guy to have a sex change operation. Here something else for you, the only woman on Nevadas death row, her name is also on the list for people who need a kidney, yeah so lets give someone who is a killer a new kidney so they can live. Rather than some law abiding citizen who has a job and four kids. That really makes sense.

First of all, you're confusing two seperate topics. I can't imagine ANYONE in this thread thinking that giving someone in jail a new kidney is a good idea. Further, I think at least MOST people here would think saving the life of a prisoner who's dying naturally is a good idea, either. This is a topic about the death penalty, not the medical care of inmates.

Rob S wrote:
So if the DP doesnt prevent crime, maybe prison doesnt either, lets just get rid of all the laws.

By YOUR logic maybe we should, because they are NOT deterrents. What GAM is saying is undisputed fact. Prison seems like a deterrent to you and me, but really keeps us from committing crimes isn't fear of prison time, it's our morals.

Jbody2nr wrote:
But what if those 100 felons go out a commit their crimes again, killing more people this time, wouldnt you think the life of one innocent should be traded for the lives of more? But now is when you start to get into What if's and what if's dont count.

History shows that the innocence of one really is worth missing the guilt on 100. This is not just some cliche. Unfortunately, I have no means to prove this to you other than recommend reading insane amounts of text on European history.

everybody wrote:.....

Fact is everyone for the death penalty has proven my original statements true... you have nothing but emotion to support your stance. And fact is, raw emotions of this kind are understandable, but are not going to win you this debate.


---

AGuStiN, Emotion or not please explain why the 2 men in my post I listed as examples
should be allowed to live? Or the couple in Tennesee? The death penalty is needed for individuals such as these because they have no respect for life and do not care if they kill. Since people such as these exist then we need the death penalty.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

jackalope wrote:AGuStiN, Emotion or not please explain why the 2 men in my post I listed as examples
should be allowed to live? Or the couple in Tennesee?

See my very first post.

jackalope wrote:
Since people such as these exist then we need the death penalty.

Justify this statement. Seriously. Find me people who didn't kill because of the death penalty. I want names.


---

^^^Jackalope is not saying that people dont kill because of the death penalty I dont think. He is saying that For some murderers and rapists and child molestors the only fear they have is death. What better way to punish someone than to take away the very thing that they truly want, their life.


I'm not saying that we shouldnt use caution in dealing out the Death penalty but, it shouldnt be tossed aside because these people have so called 'Rights.' IMO the very second these sick people commited an act that violated others rights, they have none whatsoever.

It is the same as putting a dog down because it bit someone, now I'm not trying to say that dogs and humans are the same but if they are born evil then they carry the same instincts. Now why cant we try and rehabilitate dogs huh?


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Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.

So if the state puts someone to death then are we all murderers?

And I'm not sure what the second part means. ???? Do you want the names of people who changed there minds about killing someone because of the death penalty? If so
where would you like me to start? The thought of you being exacuted as punishment for comiting murder has always been a deterent. But if you want spisific names and dates thats not a problem I just have to ask when the hanging took place that my grandfather watched as a child while being held on the shoulders of his father. When
the guilty man dropped my great grandfather told my grandfather this is why you do not kill people. My gradfather said O.k. He went on to be a U.S. marshall and never shot
anyone ever it wasn't till WW1 till he did. You can actualy look up about him in history books. Hes the first U.S. marshall that had a car in West Va. And in Va. his name
was Benjamin Franklin Bowles. He always told us it was wrong to kill because you'll winde up at the end of a rope. So I guess you can include my whole family learned
about this leason from a guy who shot someone while drunk in a bar in West Va. a
very long time ago. So now who doesn't this teach?


Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.