Seeing as how this topic is back in the congressional debates for the 100,000th time, I figured I'd ask all of you what your opinions are on this.
Should the burning of the American flag in protest be banned??? Or, do you feel that it's an interpretation of the 1st ammendment, more specifically, freedom of speech???
I feel that the burning of the American flag is a form of expression, and should be covered under the 1st ammendment of the Constitution.
On another note, what in the HELL is Congress smoking that makes them think that they can tell us what to do with our own flags?!?!?! Sure, some jaded, blindly patriotic people might be offended, but NOWHERE in the Constitution does it say that we have the right not to be offended. We have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But it doesn't say that we have the right to happiness at the expense of others.
If someone is standing at the gates of the White House, protesting the latest Bush Blunder, and proceeds to burn the American flag, does that affect you??? Sure, the flag may stand for the principles this country was founded upon, but in reality, all that is happening is that someone is burning a piece of cloth, whatever the token symbol is, it's just basically a bit of material, maybe on a stick, and is being lit afire by someone unhappy with a current situation. If that piece of cloth were, say, plain white, or the flag of Mexico, would you be offended???
In essence, someone is protesting because they are unhappy witha part of Americana, and are voicing their opinions. What could be more American than that???
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It'll draw fire, of course, but I think it was said best <a href="http://sfy.ru/sfy.html?script=american_president">here</a>:
The American President wrote:You want to claim this land as the land of the free, then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest." Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then you can stand up and sing about the land of the free.
I also figure that if you want to call the American flag a symbol, and make burning it in protest a felony or even a misdemeanor, and follow protocol, arrest Dubya and every other ham fisted political nutjob that signed one of those little desk flags during the run up to the 2004 elections. It's called desicration, it goes against the US own flag code, and it should be seen as much of a disgrace to the nation as the politicians are.
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^^^^^^^^^^^brilliant
if it is so sacred it has to be all or nothing, either let it all go and take it with a grain of salt or no maore flags that are not official, period. none of these little ribbon flags, no scaled down versions, if you want a flag in your yard build yourself a flagpole to support the damned thing and fly it properly for @!#$'s sake. educate yourself on the proper flag sizes and when and where to fly each one or STFU.
congrats to the first person flying a garrison flag at home.
PS thanks congress for finding something to waste my tax dollars on that isn't an autograph session, yet
if you dont like the country enugh to burn the flag while you liive here you also have the right to move out to canada......
you have to preserve the respect of this country for all the right you do have and the higher quality of life here
do you know our fake liberal friends in france have an unemployment rate of about 10%
i am not saying to force poeple to respect but you can't have them @!#$ with the minds of our veterans
if u want to burn it do it in another country
i really hate to say it...but i think it should be allowed. now i am a patriot. not a rednecked, blind, red state patriot. but i believe in my country and i want to do whats right for my country. and i believe that protecting our freedoms is of paramount concern to our country. i do NOT support it and i do NOT like it....but its what must be done.
The Flag is not the country, it is a symbol of it.
Burning a flag in protest is not unpatriotic, it makes a statement. You don't have to choose misplaced and undying devotion to your leaders or moving from the country. You can make your home better, and if a piece of cloth falls victim, so be it. Your Elected officials trample on the constitution at least monthly.
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I seriously cant believe this is even a question
anyone who is ok with the flag being burned is not ok with me.
-Borsty
They can never make a law preventing the burning of the American Flag. Burning the flag is the only way to properly retire it.
Now as far as in protest, I don't think it should be allowed, to a Marine it means so much more then just the symbol of our country. That is what we swore to protect, so to see any person disrespect the Flag in such a way is a personal insult to me and what I do for a living. That's just the way I see it.
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Consider the fact that I'm not excatly America's greatest proponent...
I don't think it should be banned as a form of protest because it is covered in the 1st amendment, however, what does it really do except inite people in the military, veterans, and political zealots?
Not a damned thing. It's a shock act and means nothing to, say Bush or Congress.
Setting fire to a mock-up of the Whitehouse outside of the Whitehouse would make mroe of a statement. Or contracting garbage trucks to empty their cargo on Capitol Hill's lawn. But my point is if you're going to protest, hit the people you're protesting against where it hurts.
Saint is right though, the Flag Code says that a flag has to be isposed of in an honorable way--and burning it is an honrable way. GAM is right as well, in that MASSES of people since 9/11 (many of them politicans) have violated the flag code for the sake of keeping the patriotism bandwagon going.
kinda ironic in a way...
I seriously think the first amendment to the constitution we need, though is limiting the terms of people in Congress--2 for senators and 4 for Reps.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Sinrocker... you're a blind fool. Maybe someday you'll realize that the true patriots aren't the people who support everything the government does and everything the majority of people stand for. True patriots are the people who stand up and say when something pisses them off. You may not like that someone burns the American flag, but the thing that makes America so 'great' is the fact that we can burn flags for protest or for no reason at all if that's what we choose. I'd go as far as saying that someone who burns a flag out of protest is far more patriotic than someone who has 2 flags dangling off the back of their Crown Victoria along with all of their other "Support our ___" stickers.
bliZsham wrote:Sinrocker... you're a blind fool. Maybe someday you'll realize that the true patriots aren't the people who support everything the government does and everything the majority of people stand for. True patriots are the people who stand up and say when something pisses them off. You may not like that someone burns the American flag, but the thing that makes America so 'great' is the fact that we can burn flags for protest or for no reason at all if that's what we choose. I'd go as far as saying that someone who burns a flag out of protest is far more patriotic than someone who has 2 flags dangling off the back of their Crown Victoria along with all of their other "Support our ___" stickers.
yes burning the symbol to our country makes you a patriot
are you insane?
people who protest @!#$ are morons anyways, if your upset over something write a congressmen or something, find something better to do with your lifes for gods sake.
only time a flag should be burned is to dispose of it, not cause someones got sand in their vagina over something stupid.
-Borsty
Ok I only have a few minutes before work but I am about to piss some people off. First of all, if you take it so lightly about our american military, its veterans, and the people that run our country then piss off. I don't think that every one of them are right, some, maybe a lot, are not right. What I do know is you aren't running the government and right now these guys are, so give them respect. Now for our military and its veterans, less than 2 percent (actually think its below 1% now) defends your sorry a$$ to make sure you have a place thats free, protects the flag with his/her life, would die for you if he/she was over run, but would try to protect with his/her own flesh and blood until they died. The flag is more than just a symbol, the flag is part of what our country is founded on, our freedom, and something that I too have protected with my life. So if you want to go burn the flag, first take your butt to war for our country, be shot at, nearly blew up, shed your blood and sweat for the country, then give me your oppinion again. If you still want to burn the flag after all that, then go live in the God forsaken country of Iraq, or with the french, I dont really like them either!!! So should the flag be burned with desrespect (burning to retire the flag is still ok, its proper and should be done this way), hell no!
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Borsty wrote:yes burning the symbol to our country makes you a patriot are you insane?
The american flag is not the "symbol" of this country. It is merely colored fabric representing this country's existence. The true symbol of this country is the right its citizens maintain to burn that fabric.
What if you had a family hierloom, lets say its a quilt, that has been passed down for hundreds of years and everyone in your family cherished it with there lives because it was such a big part of your family history. Now one day some a$$hole comes by and gets pissed off because you cut him off in traffic and he goes and burns your quilt. Is that quilt just colored fabric and who cares, or is it a symbol of your family? Think about that!
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but that quilt is one of a kind......only one on earth.....theres tons of flags, very replaceable.thats not the same argument.
now for me i have no solid feeling on the subject. i am a veteran and i love the flag and our country. i also love the freedoms that our nation has to include fredom of speech. so....
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there are tons of flags; however, the flag holds a lot of meaning and again its symbolic. I mean if it didn't have any meaning and it wouldn't hurt anybody then no one would burn it. The whole reason for people burning the flag is to disrespect either the flag, our country, or those who defend it. You being a veteran know as well as I do are well aware of teh fact that the flag is more than just colored fabric. If the quilt in the previous example had no meaning, just something to pick up at the store, you aren't going to be quite as mad.
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If one freedom gets taken away without so much as a whimper from the Americans then another freedom will be taken away and another and another until we stand up and say No More! I'll never support flag burning or do it but the freedom should remain in place. If you want to make a statement about Bush's genius,
, ideas then burn a poster of him.
Quote:
If you want to make a statement about Bush's genius, , ideas then burn a poster of him.
Exactly. If you're going to protest against something, you have to prostest in a way that gets the attention of the people you're protesting against.
Brining an American flag, while a freedom that should be there, is a pointless gesture. Using mock-up members of the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial branches as pińata outside their respective offices when they are leaving makes a better statement.
Quote:
What I do know is you aren't running the government and right now these guys are, so give them respect.
I give them respect based upon the job they do. If they botch everything i give them no respect (as I have been) and do the ironically patriotic thing: I attempt to vote them out of office. But respect based on position is something I don't do--that makes up one step closer to monarchy and dictatorship. The reason we vote and can protest is checks and balances.
And as for the whole "defending out freedoms" rhetoric; right now the biggest threat to our freedoms and liberties is the govenment itself--all under the white elephant of "security".
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CrAzY )v(iDgEt wrote:So if you want to go burn the flag, first take your butt to war for our country, be shot at, nearly blew up, shed your blood and sweat for the country, then give me your oppinion again. If you still want to burn the flag after all that, then go live in the God forsaken country of Iraq, or with the french, I dont really like them either!!!
OK, but name ONE conflict that we are now in that is for the purpose of defending our country. Afghanistan- More of a "regime change" campaign than anything. Seems like Bush and his cronies forgot about old Osama. Iraq-So, Saddam's cash-poor, under trained military with NO weapons of mass destruction was a big threat to the US??? Sure.
And what exactly did the French do to the US that was so terrible??? Refuse to help us with an unecessary invasion, openly show their dissaisfaction with US foreign policy, protest against the US's actions at UN meetings??? Wow, they're horrible, aren't they???
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sinrocker wrote:if you dont like the country enugh to burn the flag while you liive here you also have the right to move out to canada......
you have to preserve the respect of this country for all the right you do have and the higher quality of life here
do you know our fake liberal friends in france have an unemployment rate of about 10%
i am not saying to force poeple to respect but you can't have them @!#$ with the minds of our veterans
if u want to burn it do it in another country
i can barely understand what you just wrote.
i do however find it very funny that you care so much.... but instead of the "great" american flag.... you chose to put an italian flag on the back of your car. i guess you arent too proud of the USA?
legaly people should be allowed to burn the flag, but I should also legaly be able to beat the @!#$ out of them when they do it...
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solaris * wrote:Borsty wrote:yes burning the symbol to our country makes you a patriot are you insane?
The american flag is not the "symbol" of this country. It is merely colored fabric representing this country's existence. The true symbol of this country is the right its citizens maintain to burn that fabric.
u people are crazy. all of you.
burning a flag in protest is what scumbag middle easterns do to show they hate the us.
if u want to protest, burning that flag is saying u hate the united states of america, if u cant understand that, your a moron. if your so aganist watever your protesting burn something directly related to that,
the american flag is a symbol which represents us all, the whole country as a whole , not a few indivuals who have pissed people off.
think about what your grandfathers and fathers would say if they read half this @!#$ your writing, i would beat the crap out of my son if he told me burning the flag is ok.
IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
thats one freedom that shouldnt be allowed, sorry.
-Borsty
As Alot of you Know Iam retired Army . 23 years defending our Nation and my Opinion stems from what I feel is important. The Flag is a symbol , one of many, However The biggest symbol of land is one of our citizens being to burn that flag in protest. He is excercizing his right to make a statement, The symbol of freedom is every American being able to so. Not the flag itself.
Now get a farging Foreigner to burn it and Ill beat his ass. Not his to do or Burn.
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Borsty wrote:IF U BURN THE AMERICAN FLAG IN PROTEST YOU SHOULD BE SHOT
Wow, maybe we should be converted to a dictatorship, so noone can protest the governent!!! Just remember Borsty, banning protesting in any way shape or form is one of the 3 main ingredients to create a dictatorship.
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Borsty: I like you, but this is something that you need to learn:
- Free Speech is not just for agreeable and ameenable speech, The First Ammendment protects unpopular, radical and revolutionary speech as well. Without Free Speech, all other rights and responsibilities mean nothing.
"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
- Voltaire
Learn that quote, know it, and love it.
The fact that you have the right to speak out against your government and not be summarily shot (Bloody Sunday Massacre, Derry cty, N Ireland), Rolled over by Tanks (Tianmin Square), or whisked away and tried in secret for acts against the "royal" familiy (Saudi Arabia, to this very day) is a true blessing. The fact that you have the right to burn a symbol of the country in protest (How eager would you be if you were drafted, ask a vet that became part of the peace movement in the 60's about this) as part of your free speech rights, is sacrosanct.
If you look at burning the Flag as defilement, then Dubya and every other political figure that signed a flag should be guilty of the same crime and meted out the same punishment... They defaced the flag for greed of position, others burned the flag as shocking action.
I don't like either action, but if you're going to make the flag an immutable objext of the republic, you may as well allow Dubya to declare presidency for life... if you allow the government to take away one right, you might as well allow them to take all of them.
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